[g4YthYXx]

Dear dcpollack, It is an honor to speak with you. I consider myself a 3rd generation Christian. My family loves, honors, and respects the Jewish faith and community. I thought that today's Jews knew that Christians love the Jews. We, the diverse citizens of America elect presidents who support Israel. Christians today know (by faith) that God loves Jews as individuals and as a nation. God will always give special favor to Israel and Jews around the world - over any other group of people.
Love, a Sincere Christian.

Now, down to business.

Morality is stressed a lot in American Christian Churches, probably because God hates us breaking the 10 commandments. Remember Sodom and Gomorrah (spelling?). Having "Morals" to me is honesty, being kind to your neighbor & sexual purity (staying away from fornication & adultery).

I repeat words from the bible that express my struggel to be a moral person. "My spirit is willing, but my flesh is weak." "My righteousness is as filthy rags." This means, even when I try to be a good person, I can never live up to God's standards, that is why Jesus paid the punishment for my sins, so I can go to heaven.

I believe God created mankind to worship Him of their own free will, just as the Angels have free will and worship God. I just thought of this question, "If God had angels with a free will who worshiped Him ...Why did He need to create mankind in His own Image (another free will, worshiping life form)? He knew that Satan would try to deceive mankind the same way he took away some Angels?"

How do we get to HEAVEN?
ONE ROAD theory: Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the father except through me." He also said, "believe and be baptized" to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
MULTIPLE path theory: Brick 1: Belief in one God, Brick 2: Worship Him in all areas of your life. (What else?)
CHRISTIANITY THEORY: Catholic and ALL protestant faiths differ slightly. I think the common threads may be the bricks on the road. I think that there will be Christians of different denominations in heaven - some moral/some not moral - but ALL who ask for forgiveness by the blood of Jesus will be FORGIVEN.
SECOND CHANCES IN THE AFTERLIFE THEORY: Although my religion doesn't believe in chances to get to heaven after death, I find comfort in the fact that the Catholics and Mormons do. I say this with respect for all religions: "This way Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, and any one else who did not accept Christ can go to heaven too."
I BELIEVE THERE MUST BE SPECIFIC REQUIREMENTS FOR HEAVEN - OR THE BIBLE IS FALSE.

I hear people say, "A JUST GOD CAN NOT JUDGE EACH MAN BY SITUATIONAL ETHICS/OR A DIFFERENT STANDARD” Well, MAYBE HE WILL JUDGE EACH MAN ACCORDING TO HIS OWN HEART. God can do whatever he thinks is right. God never asked ME before he sent the flood of Noah’s day.

I have morals, I know morals, I cannot succeed alone in living morally, and only through God's forgiveness do I keep striving to do what is right towards my fellow mankind. With all the bad things that happen to good people, wouldn't teaching good morals cut down on some of the pain that others experience. (Here are some examples of pain that are caused from people who slacked off in the MORAL department: families of drive-by shooting victims, the consumers/marketplace suffer from corporate stealing, robbery victims, drunk driving victims, and other innocent bi-standards...)

[g4YthYXx]

Thank you Tom. I never figured you were 19. I thought you were 50 year old professor of theology. ha ha. TOM, I would like to hear you expound upon your original post of not likeing Christianity because it focuses on morals too much. What should it focus on?

TOM: I don't go arround saying I had an out of body experience. It is commonly refered to as "being slane in the spirit" in evangelical circles. I just wanted to clarify if you hear anyone else speak of it again. I have really enjoyed reading everyones posts.

I wish PETRARCH AND SHMOOD WOULD RESPOND TO ALL OF MY POSTS.

I was really looking forward to hearing each one of you guys respond to my posts.
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SHMOOD WROTE "So, should we focus on morals or spirituality? Both are important. The first addresses what I call "cultural religion", and the second addresses "spiritual religion". I believe that "morals" are tough to couple with spirituality. However, the place where it gets interesting is, how far can the "cultural religion" take us? When I drill deeply into it, doing the "right" thing (this is based on my conscience, since I am still not convinced I know of any universal "right" and/or "wrong") can get us pretty deep into spirituality. I personally tend toward the spiritual side of religion, but I can't say that is the only "path" to God. "
I WANT TO HEAR WHAT EVERYONE THINKS OF SHMOOD'S POST.
__________________________________________________ ____

I personnaly do not differentiate between the two. I believe that obedience brings good morals and then leads to spirituality or closeness with God. Two posts ago - I RESPONDED TO SHMOOD'S QUESTION ON PATHS TO GOD. WHAT DO YOU THINK?
__________________________________________________ ___
Shmood, Why can't you find a universal right or wrong? I guess I see both sides. Killing, stealing, suicide are wrong but, should we talk about killing in war, stealing food when your hungery/poverty, and Doctors of Death who put terminal patients out of their misery? These are moral issues. What do you think?

[lopezsokero]

Tom,

You have my sympathies regarding your cat. I understand how difficult it is - my dog, who I truly loved, also fell ill and putting him to sleep was among the most difficult things I've ever had to do (although it was unquestionably the right thing to do).

Regarding the piece you quoted from me - I agree as well. I probably wasn't very clear in my writing as there were a lot of subjects to cover and I never go back to proofread my writing. The point I was trying to make is that Christianity is not about morals. Sin, as viewed as anything separating an individual from God, is intimately linked to Christianity. There are a number of "rules" that a person should not transgress. The purpose of these is that breaking them will almost definitely cause such a separation, or sin. The rules are there to help a person, not make them feel guilty when they break them. Jesus' warning is quite appropriate. If you decide that more rules are required for yourself, then you are held by them and force sin because you will inevitably break them - it does not mean the others are invalidated in any way.

So - I think we are in agreement on this issue. Once again, my sympathies.

[fil_nurser]

I will only say these few things.

1.) I don't see Matthew 27:25 as an attack on the Jews in any way shape or form.

2.) I am NOT Catholic. I am a Protestant. Furthermore I am not Lutherin. I'm non-denominational. (Just to clearify)

3.) The Pope is NOT God. As much as some of them wanted to be, they just aren't and never have been. And NO ONE is infallible, not even the Pope (Only God).

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[FelixQY]

What I was getting at rather, was that to stand by idly and let someone believe things that you think are untrue, isn't a good idea. Especially those ideas that can easily be cleared up throught the text of the Bible.

[fil_nurser]

I ended my last post rather abruptly and I appologise for that. You see, after reading your post for the second time, dcpollack, I suddenly felt like this had gone from a friendly open minded discussion to something more like an argument and I just had to stop right there.
I had said I was sorry because I saw in your words, "I am still at a total loss to understand what "God's Love" is," something very sad. Not to know God's Love is something I can hardly comprehend and I felt sad, that is why I said I'm sorry.

I'm going to slow myself down on this forum over the next few days... Thank you all for your excellent discussions, I am impressed and honored by them.

[khjhkfggt]

I believe the initial intent of this discussion was to discuss Christianity and its apparent perception to be mainly focused on morals versus spirituality/realization. I think this is a very interesting topic, and one that I debate myself.

Main Paragraph
In fact, in comparison to many Eastern religions, there may more of an emphasis on morals in the "preaching" of Christianity. As a "religion" itself, however, I have to believe that it has a significant focus on spirituality.

For sentence 2 of the "Main Paragraph", I believe that all religions came from an interpretation of "events", "knowledge", and other commonly held beliefs. I think that all religions strive to reach some level of spirituality, which I define as "realization of self, God, and the relationship between self and God".

For sentence 1, I believe that these beliefs were interpreted in different ways due to situational circumstances including 1) the messenger interpreting the beliefs, 2) the best way to relate to the audience, 3) the time period, and many other variables (perhaps 2 and 3 go together).

So, in terms of Christianity being ÔÇ£about morals", I believe this preaching is a function of our times and what people can relate to in their quest for spirituality -- the fact that Christianity is the largest religion in the World attests to its success to relate to people. The ways of a somewhat "vague" (as it has been called) God or vague concepts that many Eastern religions preach aren't as simple to grasp and sometimes can lead to disinterest.

So, should we focus on morals or spirituality? Both are important. The first addresses what I call "cultural religion", and the second addresses "spiritual religion". I believe that "morals" are tough to couple with spirituality. However, the place where it gets interesting is, how far can the "cultural religion" take us? When I drill deeply into it, doing the "right" thing (this is based on my conscience, since I am still not convinced I know of any universal "right" and/or "wrong") can get us pretty deep into spirituality. I personally tend toward the spiritual side of religion, but I can't say that is the only "path" to God.

There is much more to be said about the last few sentences, but I recommend a new thread for all that. Also, there were some semantics discussed in this thread, which I would recommend be discussed elsewhere as well. The discussion of ChristianityÔÇÖs apparent focus on morals is incredibly interesting and there is great discussion that can come from it. I am interested to see if others (Christians and non-Christians) feel that this focus exists and how they feel about it.

[g4YthYXx]

Thank you for clarifying my perception of angels, free will, and an innocent child. I agree whole-heartedly, but I know some would say, "let us sin so grace may abound." I know this is wrong, but 10 years ago when I was 20 years of age, I was feeling suffocated by morals and I was naive to the ways of the world. I felt that if I did not venture outside the church walls and learn how to communicate with my peers that would not be able to hold an intelligent conversation or gain their respect. I think now that I was right, but in my quest for understanding the knowledge of good and evil, I found out that I was capable of doing the sins that I had once so self righteously condemned. Now, I find that restoring my pure relationship with God is now clouded with temptations and I feel hopeless. Today I read "Hebrews Chapter 10" and cried because I am a Christian that "shrank" or fell short of God's standard and did not persevere in my faith. Or maybe I did survive, I never denounced God, I only continually sinned, asked forgiveness and sinned again. Help, Advice anyone?

SPIRITUALITY: I watched on PBS television how a Buddhist monk was teaching Christians in New York to meditate, clear their mind of stress, and come into a Buddha state of mind. My mind raced. Christians meditate on Christ not Buddha. I understand the need for spirituality. We are created with body, soul, and spirit. We are living in the midst of a spiritual war on our minds. (i.e. lust or daily stress) I think Christians should be very careful to guard their heart when meditating.

DOES BENNY HINN HIPMOTIZE HIS LISTENERS INTO FALLING DOWN?I BELIEVE GOD'S SPIRIT DOES MOVE! I know without a doubt that when I was 14 years old worshiping God, I felt dizzy and I fell backwards and had an outer body experience where I was bowing down before a white glowing figure on a throne. This was in my mind. My reality was so peaceful and joyful when I drifted out of it.

IS MEDITATION A FORM OF SELF HYPNOSIS ORDAINED BY GOD TO REFRESH OUR SPIRITS? OR Are their some people who have evil spiritual gifts to speak to the dead? I believe we choose what environment that we nurture our spirits in (for good/evil).

[ranndomderr]

mb, I'd also like to point out that there is a difference between being homosexual (physically attracted to members of the same gender) and practicing homosexuality (having sex with members of the same gender). Its like having a temper, its something that you will have to deal with one way or another, and just giving in to it is viewed as wrong by many people. Also while we're quoting scripture, didn't Jesus say, "let he who is sinless cast the first stone?" Just because someone has things they struggle with doesn't make them evil or immoral, and accepting and supporting someone struggling with any given sin doesn't mean that you are accepting the sin, just the person. You've kind of attacted a straw man, saying (if I understand your post correctly) "Look, they have someone who has a bad quality, so therefore morallity has nothing to do with Christianity." The question is not if all Christians are moral (hint: they aren't) but if Christianity is based on morals. I believe it is in a certian sense, in that Christianity is about becoming close to God and acting according to His will. Since Christians believe that God is the source and essence of Goodness and Right, striving to act in accord with His will is the same as striving to do what is good and right. Morallity is normally accept to mean trying to do the right thing, so really being a Christian implies having a certian morallity by definition. Non-christians may argue that it is a false morallity, but that really falls outside of the scope of this discussion.

[aburva.org]

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[lopezsokero]

Personal apology? Is that what you got out of Sincere's post? I interpretted Sincere's message quite differently.

[ranndomderr]

Tom hit the nail right on the head with that late line of his post. Anyone can be a Christian, even those who struggle with sin. If a person had to be flawlesss to be a Christian, there wouldn't be any. Everyone has struggles they deal with, and I certainly agree with Tom and mb that someone who is still controlled by major sins would not make a good leader. However, there are certianly people who have managed to overcome most of their sinful tendencies, including homosexuals, so catagorizing someone based on sins they've struggled with in the past is quite unfair.

[ttoothh]

I just wanted to expound on some of the things Thomas was saying. As far as Christianity not being about morals, I totally agree... to a point.
During Jesus' earthly ministry, he chose some of the roughest, incompetent, and frankly some of the poorest examples of humankind to be his disciples. Peter was a hothead, James and John were supremely pompous and arrogant, Phillip may have been a heavy gambler. Add to the mix dead drunks, skeptics, and social outcasts and you have Jesus' first apostles. I've got to say that His choice of trainees shows a lot about the character of God. The people that follow Him listen to what He says not because He tells them to, but because they love Him. That, in it's essence sums up morality in Christianity for me. If I feel like God has revealed something I should or should not be doing (i.e. through scripture) then I will try my hardest not to do it. Again, not because I feel obligated to, but because I generally love God, and want to do what he wants me to do.
Here's where it gets tricky. Is morality the same for everybody? For every Christian even? Not exactly. I definitely think that some things are pretty much set in stone (that was a poor attempt at humor, remember those ten commandments?). Don't murder, don't steal, don't steal your neighbors wife... those are all pretty much universal. I really believe that, and I may be getting off TomMalufs original point, a lot of the doctrinal bickering about what type of music to play, and when is a good time to do this, and inappropriate ways to worship/dress/whatever are nothing more than nonsense arguments caused by fallible humans trying to organize an infallible God.
I lost my train of thought. But there's my two sense, now I have to take a shower.

[fil_nurser]

IÔÇÖm finally home from College. I have had some time to talk with my family and friends about life, religion, and God. I also, just now, went back and re-read everything that has been written on this topic so far. It is interesting to follow the progression of this topic.

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[fil_nurser]

I started a reply to dcpollack and had writen a lot... then my friend comes over and turns my computer off, thinking it's funny. I will try to reply to this another time though, right now I'm a little too upset to re-write it all.

Eh, whatever. Sorry.

[fil_nurser]

That's right... you are Jewish correct dcpollack?
I appologise for any discrimination or hatred you my have felt because of Christians... although it may not be my place to appologise in the first place seeing as I've never taken part in any of these things you mention and try my best to keep myself unassosiated with them. But to get to the point;
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[aburva.org]

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[fil_nurser]

Hmmmm... I really don't understand what you are asking mb. Are you saying "The Bible says this is wrong, but the Catholic Church is accepting it. So where are the morals now?" or are you saying "Obviously morals have no place in Christianity, look what the Catholics are doing." or maybe... never mind. I just don't understand where you're coming from.

Also, I don't remember where in the Bible it says "do not take a man as like taking a wife in the bed." I thought I knew the Bible pretty well, but I don't remember seeing anything like that passage.
I do remember something in Romans that specifically says homosexuality is wrong, but I don't remember if that's the verse you are talking about. It is strongly implied many times in the Old Testament that homosexuality is wrong (example being Gomorra).

... I just noticed your subject "not at all" (Is Christianity about morals? Not at all) I guess that was the answer I was looking for.
Well then let me say this. The Catholic Church does not represent Christianity as a whole. It can only represent itself. The same goes with any church (Protestant, Catholic, or other).

[g4YthYXx]

Thank you, Tom, Petrarch, Shmood. Thank you, thank you for shedding light on areas that are avoided in casual conversations. I have a great respect for each of you. I have fully enjoyed this forum. I am so grateful to have found it. My two years of Bible college pale in comparrison to your knowledge. I would like to start a new topic. Thanks again.

[aburva.org]

Damn right I'm Jewish. And if anyone knows about Christian hatred, it's my people.

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