[tgs]

Tribalism? Why not? If the concept of "spain" does not exist any more for the Spanish it may be Al-Andalus for all I care.
But going back to the good old nation-state concept will be one of the options and I am fairly sure common sense will prevail in most cases. Even in Europe. Even in 21 century. But better sooner rather than later.

[Lillie_Steins]

Not just when said terrorists are attacking first, but in response to ANY Israeli response at all, at any time.

PS: NATO is dead, the EU is dead.

http://rubinreports.blogspot.com/201...ing-up-us.html

By Barry Rubin

From news article:
It should be getting pretty hard even for Western leaders to ignore the Turkish regime's growing alliance with their enemies. Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan's visit to Lebanon included a very dangerous statement that must not go unnoticed.

Lebanon, of course, is now a virtual satellite of Iran, another strategic factor Western countries and media don't seem to be comprehending. This relationship is symbolized by the recent exchange of visits by Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Lebanese Prime Minister Saad al-Hariri.

Here's what Erdoğan said that crossed the line into something new and extremely dangerous: if Israel attacked Lebanon or the Gaza Strip, "We will not be silent and we will support justice by all means available to us."

The prime minister understood what he was saying. "By all means available to us" implies Turkish military support for Hamas and Hizballah in fighting Israel. That doesn't mean, of course, that Turkey would send troops or even military supplies, but it is basically a declaration that includes both possibilities. Erdoğan didn't even restrict himself to cases when the terrorist groups he favors would be acting defensively. If Hamas or Hizballah launch an attack on Israel and Israel retaliated, Erdogan has now bound Turkey to support the aggressors.

None of this is accidental. Erdoğan is indeed impulsive but he knew what he was saying. And he also knew that the United States would do nothing against him as a result of this statement, nor would the Europeans. Still, how is threatening to join a war against Israel going to advance Turkish membership in the European Union?

To leave nothing to doubt, a Turkish newspaper interviewed two pro-Hizballah people who were enthusiastic in agreeing with the above analysis. One said, “Turkey is moving closer to the so-called ‘resistance axis.’ [The Iran-led bloc that includes Syria, the Iraqi insurgents, Hamas, and Hizballah.] It is edging toward a definitively anti-Israeli stance.”

Another added, “What struck me about Ahmadinejad's visit was that he was sounding more like Erdoğan.”

Might it be a matter of concern when a NATO ally offers to go to war, or at least fully to the aid, of two terrorist groups and Iran? Could urgent action be required when a U.S. ally sounds like a revolutionary Islamist country that is the world's leading sponsor of terrorism, covertly helps kill American soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan, calls for Israel's extinction, and is reaching toward getting nuclear weapons?

Nero, according to the legend, celebrated Rome's burning by playing on his fiddle. Obama doesn't even notice that the U.S. position in the Middle East is being incinerated.

[tgs]

NATO is dead,

is that a bad thing?

the EU is dead.

oh, that's a great thing! Thanks, Turkey (if that's the case... but I think there will be a lot more to it though).
Yep, Turkey is turning into a lame islamist turkey. I think it's time to talk independent Kurdistan and Russia's access to the straights together with the Armenian genocide...
The more reasons to institute regime change in Iran. It appears at this point that Erdogan would follow Ahmadin, so make sure the latter goes down the drain.
Actually, forceful destruction of Iranian nuke facilities might be enough if there is any credible opposition to the mad ayatollahs in Iran. Which is not certain but no harm trying.

[Raj_Copi_Jin]

In the normal world of international relations, no. NATO goes away sort of but already they're concocting a 'new' mission for it; essentially police actions and so called state-building. More or less the mission that MEU's take in the US.

Keep in mind that the EU still expects the US to protect them from all comers. Germany and Italy absolutely refuse to even discuss removing American troops from their countries.

The problem with dissolving EU is that they can't replace it with anything. The nations in it are already on a course to abandoning national sovereignty. "Ireland" or "Spain" or "Holland" are largely meaningless concepts. When Federalism over it in the form of the EU goes away then what? Tribalism?