[saopinax]

The detailed description of the state of the country shows it effectively dying beneath the burdens of being essentially pre-industrial and also (in tandem) of having a very old-fashioned monarchical system. Everything is stagnating (the development of the country has been constricted, if you will).

Does this equate to Germany at the time? In my ignorance of world history, I couldn't tell whether Mann was referring to Germany as "the country" or not.

... and 'Heinrich' was his brother, who hated this novel. The two rowed about it to a great extent – it was one aspect in a split between the pair that took a very long time to heal.

Interesting... do you know what Heinrich's problem with it was? Is there an online reference somewhere?

[bapimporb]

Does this equate to Germany at the time? In my ignorance of world history, I couldn't tell whether Mann was referring to Germany as "the country" or not.

My suspicion is that he was thinking along rather more general terms of the Germanic countries: it probably fits more easily as an analysis of the state of Austro-Hungary at the time. The decay of that was later to be one of the weaknesses in the alliance of Austro-Hungary and Germany in WWI. Indeed, perhaps he was making a call for Austro-Hungary to modernise, to industrialise more? Germany – ruled at the time effectively by Prussia – was far more advanced in terms of industrialisation: that was a vital part of the development of the dreadnought fleet that so upset Britain.

I haven't seen anything obvious about imperialism in the first two chapters, but it was obviously at the heart of the causes of WWI – all the Great Powers racing for colonies etc. Germany was way behind in that because, under Bismarck, Prussia had had no interest in outside colonies. Indeed, Bismarck even tried to give one of their very few colonies away, as a present to British prime minister Gladstone. Imperialist ambition was at the heart of major changes to German/Prussian foreign policy when Bismarck was effectively sacked from his position as Chancellor in 1890 by the new Kaiser, Wilhelm II. Unlike Wilhelm I, the new Kaiser was ambitious for colonies and wanted to join the imperial race.

Another thing that the issue raises – although I'm not sure that this was remotely in Mann's mind when writing – is the question of an absolutely (or pretty much) monarchy requiring a very talented individual to be on the throne. It happened in Prussia three times – under the Great Elector (Margrave Frederick William of Brandenburg), Frederick William (the 'Soldier King', who was an arse as a father, but was a brilliant administrator) and then his son, Frederick III – Frederick the Great. If you look at both of Prussia's most troubled periods, during the Thirty Years War and the Napoleonic era, ineffective and nervous rulers at the time opted for disastrous policies of neutrality, which saw the state seriously damaged (in the former, Brandenburg Prussia was appallingly badly affected, possibly worse than anywhere else; in the 19th century, when there was a rise in German 'Volk' culture, there was a desire to collect folk tales etc from all parts of the empire. But in Prussia, there was almost nothing from before the Thirty years War: so much had been eradicated and whole populations had fled or been destroyed.

But the point is that, if you have a monarch with a great deal of power, he has to be special if the country is not to decay – to be constricted in one way or another.

Interesting... do you know what Heinrich's problem with it was? Is there an online reference somewhere?

Heinrich didn't see monarchy as a desired or reformable system of government, while Thomas did. Until after WWI, Thomas was very much a conservative and supporter of Kaiser Wilhelm II, while his brother was already something of a political radical. His political development leftwards didn't start until later – arguably the early 1920s when he started vocally supporting (and garnering support for) parliamentary democracy in the form of the Weimar Republic. My knowledge is largely from a collection of the brothers' letters and Anthony Heilbut's biography of Thomas.

[saopinax]

My knowledge is largely from a collection of the brothers' letters and Anthony Heilbut's biography of Thomas.

Your knowledge is considerable! Thanks...

[bapimporb]

Your knowledge is considerable! Thanks...

My pleasure!

My long-term interest in Prussian history, which provides a good background for this, I think/hope, was also part of the reason that I 'got into' Thomas Mann in the first place, and he has been one of my personal 'household gods' since I first read any of his work.

[zoolissentesy]

But the point is that, if you have a monarch with a great deal of power, he has to be special if the country is not to decay – to be constricted in one way or another.

...which hints at the gipsy woman's prophecy and the delight Herr von Knobelsdorff experiences upon Klaus Heinrich's birth. I realized the symbolism of the constriction, while knowing little of the complete picture as Sybarite has explained. Even allowing for a lack of background knowledge, the symbolism has an almost, er, heavy handed approach and is rather obvious. I'm thinking that the novel is referred to as a fairy tale of sorts?

I thought the next chapter, The Country, lovely and timeless:

The people loved their woods...And yet the forest had been sinned against, outraged for ages and ages. The Grand Ducal Department of Woods and Forests deserved all the reproaches that were laid against it. That Department had not political insight enough to see that the wood must be maintained and kept as inalienable common property, if it was to be useful not only to the present generation, but also to those to come; and that it would surely avenge itself if it were exploited recklessly and short-sightedly, without regard to the future, for the benefit of the present.

[bapimporb]

...which hints at the gipsy woman's prophecy and the delight Herr von Knobelsdorff experiences upon Klaus Heinrich's birth...

Indeed. Although there's also the whole idea of royalty being 'special' in general: of being different from the rest of the people, apart. At it's most simplistic, Mann could be reminding us that that is nonsense and that royalty are human like the rest of 'us' – but the Grand Duke's attitude is certainly one of believing his own propaganda, if you will. Therefore, someone has to be to blame for the hand – yet his first son is not strong: not perfect in terms of health. Perhaps Mann is even hinting here at the problems of breeding from such a very small – almost incestuous – pool?

... I realized the symbolism of the constriction, while knowing little of the complete picture as Sybarite has explained. Even allowing for a lack of background knowledge, the symbolism has an almost, er, heavy handed approach and is rather obvious. I'm thinking that the novel is referred to as a fairy tale of sorts?

I think that the novel has been referred to in such a fashion, yes. You can see elements of that – indeed, mann makes specific reference to fairy tales (think it's a little later so won't go into detail here). There's also, in general, a sense that this very much a Mittel Europa romance.

I thought the next chapter, The Country, lovely and timeless:

The detail in it delightful. And, as with the rest of what I've read thus far, it's very gentle and quite soothing.

A couple of additional points: according to Anthony Heilbut (Mann's biographer, who I mentioned earlier), Kaiser Wilhelm II had a similarly deformed left hand. And such a deformity (together with left-handedness) was considered by some to indicate homosexuality and/or impotence.

[zoolissentesy]

But Kaiser Wilhelm would have been flattered?

[bapimporb]

But Kaiser Wilhelm would have been flattered?

Not with any implied suggestion of homosexuality or impotence, but presumably with any suggestion that he was a sort of great hope of the Hohenzollerns.

[saopinax]

Is it okay to talk about chapters 3 and 4 yet?

[bapimporb]

Is it okay to talk about chapters 3 and 4 yet?

I assume so.

Sa3rd-We7th: Chapter3 + Chapter 4 (73 pages)

[Abnorbprootly]

Quick post to say that I shall start reading in earnest later today. Should be joining in at some point over the weekend.

[bapimporb]

A few quick thoughts.

As the next two chapters develop, we increasingly see Klaus Heinrich's world being filled out. There is a sense of decay about the ducal family – in some ways, the malformed hand and the weakness of Albrecht also hints at this. The castles are decaying – formal and state occasions are held in tatty environments. There is an extraordinary scene in the third chapter, where Klaus Heinrich stands alone in one of the formal chambers, the Silver Room, and sees the decay and tries to understand what is expected of him.

We see an idea about the way in which people excuse royalty and make things easier for them – the teachers who create tactics so that the prince cannot be seen to have answered anything incorrectly, for instance. The childhood and youth of Klaus Heinrich is also artificial and stultifying. We see his increasing loneliness – and also that of his brother.

There are ideas put forward about the monarchy's role – that it's effectively to be a live fairy tale for the people, to enjoy and make them happy. Thus an idea of pretty much pointless lives.

And indeed, Mann gives a brief but very cutting portrait of Klaus Heinrich's mother: cold and obsessed with her own beauty, she shows her children no affection – indeed, she has no real interest in them at all – only putting on a show of being a loving mother when there are others to watch. It is a dysfunctional family, playing their empty parts to fulfill a ceremonial role and provide entertainment and, to an extent at least, an 'example' to the people (see the Windsors to this day). That it creates for them all an emotionally frigid life is of no importance when considered against the idea of duty and of their "calling". Perhaps the need or desire to have such a family as the figureheads at the top of the country is a sign of the country's immaturity too?

The shoemaker incident when Klaus Heinrich is still a child shows the divide between the 'ordinary' people and the monarchy, with the bitchy and bullying "lackeys" (who seem to be the ones who reveal snobbishness by virtue of their connection to the monarchy) effectively acting as a barrier between the two groups. Hinnerke is the first real encounter that Klaus Heinrich and his sister have with anyone of the ordinary people and it has a big impact on him. Or does it? Will it be remembered later? What does suddenly become clear for Klaus Heinrich is that the people see him as different – and name their own children after him (as Hinnerke himself had).

The teacher ?berlein is an interesting figure. Fiercely ambitious, from outside aristocracy, he teaches Klaus Heinrich an idea of his duty – almost a sense of idolatry of the role and idea of monarchy. His education is uninspired and there is a sense of Klaus Heinrich being constricted (like the hand, again) in his own personal development. He never rebels, just goes along with what he's told and shows little real character. But the incident at the ball, where he allows himself to get 'carried away' is indicative again of the divide between the people and the monarchy – but it also hints at a side of the relationship that we've not seen before: that there are those who also enjoy seeing members of the ducal family make fools of themselves etc.

Later, the rather delicate way in which Mann explains that it's been carefully arranged for Klaus Heinrich to lose his virginity is delightful and very quietly funny. But again, it's a case of everything being arranged for Klaus Heinrich. He has – or takes – no real control over his own life. He's a puppet of tradition and (apparently) the desire of the people for a fairy tale (how times have changed – now it's a soap opera, in the UK at least).

All in all (thus far): a beautifully detailed description of a monarchy that is fading and decaying, but doesn't realise it. With a court and a people that apparently don't realise it either, and a sense that both monarchy and country need to modernise for the sake of the future. Deceptively light and deceptively simple.

[zoolissentesy]

Yet, at some point during this deceptively simple section, I decided to keep on reading because of what's hinted...

My favorite, so much so that it tingles, theme in literature is that of personal evolution and change from one ''state'' into another, with all of the emotional pain and hardship which ensues. Isn't it in this section where the smelly rose bush is introduced very cursorily? This, and the excursion Klaus Heinrich and Ditlinde make which introduces them to the shoemaker, felt to me like a clue that the real story hadn't truly begun.

I've thought over this past week about the seeming contradiction between Mann's subtle flattery of Kaiser Wilhelm in this novel, while he at the same time is exposing the weaknesses of the Imperial rule. What missing piece am I not getting? Need to read more about Kaiser Wilhelm.

[Abnorbprootly]

I'm catching up slowly but surely.

A quick word about Mann's writing techniques. He makes extensive use of the leitmotif in relation to his characters. Klaus Heinrich's hand, Albrecht's skull-like face. He often extends the leitmotiv to their names. It is a hint of the role the character plays. So:

Grimmburg = fierce castle
von Buehl zu Buehl = from bump to bump
Ueberbein = ganglion, a centre of intellectual activity
Spoelmann = (low German, Dutch) he who rinses

[zoolissentesy]

Thanks, Lizzy, those are helpful to someone who has no knowledge of German. I had attached what I thought might be an approximation of the Grimmburg motif by thinking of it as ''Grimburgh'' or gloomy village. A little Scots-German mangling!

Was anyone else livened up at the first mention of the rose bush legend?

[saopinax]

A quick word about Mann's writing techniques. He makes extensive use of the leitmotif in relation to his characters. Klaus Heinrich's hand, Albrecht's skull-like face. He often extends the leitmotiv to their names.

I had noted oft-repeated phrases describing something the characters do habitually:

Albrecht - lower lip sucked gently against the upper one

Klaus Heinrich - hiding left hand behind his back

Sammet - ends all sentences with "Yes"

Imma - pursing her lips and turning her head from side to side
--

And some which are descriptive of a look:

Mr Spoelman - thin hands half protected by soft cuffs

Countess - blush on one side of the face, pale on the other
---

Do these relate to "leitmotif"? Sorry, complete ignorance again!

[saopinax]

The shoemaker incident when Klaus Heinrich is still a child shows the divide between the 'ordinary' people and the monarchy, with the bitchy and bullying "lackeys" (who seem to be the ones who reveal snobbishness by virtue of their connection to the monarchy) effectively acting as a barrier between the two groups. Hinnerke is the first real encounter that Klaus Heinrich and his sister have with anyone of the ordinary people and it has a big impact on him. Or does it? Will it be remembered later? What does suddenly become clear for Klaus Heinrich is that the people see him as different ? and name their own children after him (as Hinnerke himself had).

The shoemaker incident comes back later in the book when Klaus Heinrich tells someone what the lackeys are like. He relates second hand experience as if he knows it first hand, and possibly doesn't even remember how he learned it, not unlike how prejudice can be handed down from parent to child.

Most of Klaus Heinrich's experience is unreal, and I think that's what these two chapters (Hinnerke the Shoemaker and Doctor Uberbein) are set to portray.

[saopinax]

Was anyone else livened up at the first mention of the rose bush legend?

Yes, I think I was - I remember feeling it was going to be significant. Can you point out roughly where it is? I struggle to find things later if I didn't make a note of it.

[bapimporb]

The rose bush is certainly one of those elements that made me think that this is a fairy tale.

It does seem (at present – I'm about half way through) that Mann's reading of the monarchy as an institution is that the people want it to be like a fairy tale. I'm finding that whole aspect really interesting – particularly when then considering the House of Windsor. What is the purpose of a monarchy? In the novel, as Albrecht's speech at the siblings' meeting over tea shows, while he's supposed to be the ruler of the county, he isn't really. And Klaus Heinrich comes to experience it as a performance: something that almost exclsively very ceremonial – and really very shallow.

[zoolissentesy]

Can you point out roughly where it is? I struggle to find things later if I didn't make a note of it.

Same here, and I can't find the first mention, but it's early, maybe in the school chapter?