[Jjfotqse]

The Japanese are largely an oriental pagan nation who admire civilised nations and would do their best to imitate them, which is nothing bad in itself.

In ancient times, the Japanese imitated the Chinese though they now have turned their back on the oriental civilisation. In modern times, the Japanese turned to imitate the west and successfully industrialised their country, which is a good thing in itself.

But unlike the Americans and the Europeans who developed their humanistic ring in their Christian culture(s), the Japanese as a pagan oriental nation who think of their own past as humble and even shameful, chose to split with its own past and to imitate the westerners. In the meantime, they view other oriental nations and cultures as inferior. That's why the Japanese tend to treat other oriental nations as barbarians in a barbaric manner while in the meanwhile behaving themselves in front of westerners in a humble and elaborated civilised manner.

Anyhow, the Japanese have never gone beyond imitation. And the Japanese civilisation can be regarded as a civilisation of imitations which is devoid of its humanistic core.

This core can only be achieved through digestion of what they have imitated, either oriental or western, rather than through mere imitation.

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[Goalseexere]

This is a forum --- for exchange of views and debates --- not for Karade or boxing?

I mean no derogation of copying. I am try to, with ur consent and assistance, dig into the deformed civilisation which is devoid of its humanistic core

Ok, you make that comment about the forum's purpose being for exchange of views and debates, not for karate and boxing, but then you make some comment like the one in bold italics above?

Hmmm...

[vekiuytyh]

Herrrre we gooooooooo, another Japan has faults thread, they did atrocities they dont accept them etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etccccccc........ we all know that the Japanese don't have a clear concience and are intransigent in accepting their ghost from the past. Howeverrrrr, it seems to me that China also has a few ghosts of its own, if you guys recongize the mistakes of Japan, why did you repeat them ?

An example, Tibet, and this is in modern history, the cultural revolution, the barefoot doctors; every country has it's own s**t that stinks up from the sewer from time to time, the problem is to recognize that you can't try to give me moral judgment on Japan without considering your legacy. It would be like well, like a Belgian accusing a French person of the negative effects of the colonlization of Africa.

[mortgrhhh]

some might say that for the racial situation in this country as well
look like op just registered to start stuff though

[Dogxzysl]

I moved your thread here as it seems a more appropriate place for such discussions. Btw, to quote yourself from another thread you recently started:

"What some of our Japanese are doing in this forum is more than fanning hostility..."

Might want to be careful you aren't accused of doing the same...

[JoesBro]

Maybe deep down he thought what he doing was wrong and so when you moved it he assumed that was the reason.

[soajerwaradaY]

I fail to see how immitation means something bad.

If something is good then copy yes???

Some might say the chinese way and other oriental ways of doing things are not so good. your inability to move on and put the past behind you. The rich nations generally are these western cultures so what is wrong with being like them. Japan is a reasonably wealthy country also after doing things more the western way.

As for splitting with your past its really the only way to move on is it not??

As for western nations we to have split from our past as you call it. Its Evolution of society.

[sleelverrex]

[QUOTE=miu]If you're looking for faults in the Japanese society, you should atleast give some valid proof for your claims. I can think of flaws in the Japanese society but what I don't do is to singulate Japan as the only nation that does this. Discrimination, war crimes - we can find these elsewhere as well. In China, for example. You wrote that 'the Japanese have never gone beyond imitation' and I gave some evidence which shows that borrowed elements in the japanese culture are not mere copies. If you want to examine 'the deformed civilisation which is devoid of its humanistic core' (and I assume you mean Japan), give some valid proof for your claims?


You may well defend Japan juat as I have many positive impressions about this island country --- their diligence, effeciency, and rigidity. But....

Their war atrocities were not just killing. It was killing of civilians. It was chemical weapon tests on living humans who they called MARUDA. Their military fought in utter ignorance of established international law.

Their so-called unconditional surrender was just that without repentance.

Any nation has the right to shuffle off certain parts of their history for their own sake, but that does not mean they can be exempt from their moral responsibilities to other nations.

Any civilisation has its defects and faults, but if a civilisation refrains from facing its own defects and faults, we need to help dig into it, urging its members to take due responsibilities.

In China, for example, it is well accepted that the CCP owes justice to those killed in the 1989 pro-democratic movement.

[inve.tment]

This, I think, helps explain why the Japanese lack an ethic for repentance

Back to the war again is it???

I thought you were finally moving on to another topic for a change.
Does everything have to lead back to the Japanese not realising the past.

As i stated before, immitation is not a bad thing, they are merely trying to improve themselves and move on. True maybe they are doing it a little to fast but that is better then not doing it at all.

As for regarding other Asian nations as inferior, I doubt
that similar approaches wouldn't ve present elsewhere as well - how do people in general view Africa? How do you view Africa?

Now you mention that i think i would consider them as inferior, i know this make me sounds like an *** but i do. Lack of technology, evolved society, education.

Therefore maybe the statement by Tonysoong about the Japanese seeing the other asian countries as inferior should be altered to include other nations and there views about other cultures?

[Gymngatagaica]

I wrote more on this but my pc crashed and naturally I lost everything, so here's a concised version:

Imitation is one of the most basic thing in the human nature - we learn things through imitation. I wouldn't say, however,
that the Japanese only imitate things. They adopt bits and pieces elsewhere just like any other culture. I could give you
examples of borrowing in the Chinese culture as well but I don't think you're interested in that.

As for the claim that 'the Japanese have never gone beyond imitation', I think it's not valid. I don't see how others view this but I think one
of the key features in the Japanese culture is the 'uchi-soto' concept. It might be applied to the
study of non-japanese cultural adoption as well - on the surface something can seem familiar and like a copy but when you dig deeper it has
more Japanese traits than similarities to the original model. If you think about politics, LDP and the way it works, for example,
one could say it's rather different from the American model... As for things such as tea and the tea ceremony, Chanoyu and Chadô as a whole
both feature distinctively Japanese traits - such as raku ceramics and the ideology for using that particular style.

As for the etnocentric approach, it could be traced back to the Nation State as well as the traditional ie concept
in the Japanese family. Similar way of thinking can be seen in the Chinese clan system, so if you're failiar with it,
I think it should not be difficult to understand why the Japanese work as a whole and not as individuals. I'm not trying
to say that one fact or another justifies anything, I just want to point out that there's always a cause and an effect
so nothing ever happens out of the blue and without a reason. As for regarding other Asian nations as inferior, I doubt
that similar approaches wouldn't ve present elsewhere as well - how do people in general view Africa? How do you view Africa?

If all imitation is prohibited, we wouldn't have rich culture. There's a difference between imitation and adoption.

[Gaiaakgyyyg]

Tonysoong - can you show me one period of time in which any nation is perfect? Show me one span of time in which any nation can claim to be without any fault.

You cannot.

In your eyes, what should be done to Japan for not being perfect in your eyes? Or for that matter any nation?

[12Cickprior]

Can't we all just get along? I guess not.

Doc

[Rx-Ultram]

I get the strange feeling that you two are referring to the same phenemenon that nobody truly understands. Japan as any other country is not uniform, as has been pointed out many times

Exactly - in Japan, the idea of Japan and its people as an entity did not really exist before the Nation State. Before that the ordinary people had little or no idea who the emperor was. It's true that Japan has many invented traditions, such as the kimono for example, but I suppose you could speculate this has all been brought about along the Nation State. Invented traditions and concepts were introduced in order to unify a very heterogenous people. This still doesn't mean that Japan is completely without any 'serious' tradition.

Therefore maybe the statement by Tonysoong about the Japanese seeing the other asian countries as inferior should be altered to include other nations and there views about other cultures?

Exactly. I very much doubt that many Americans or Europeans consider Thailand, for example, to have an equal status with their country.

But, perhaps as Iron Chef has noticed, there is a serious problem behind the Japanese copying --- They have imitated so much both from classic China and the modern west (too much) without digesting it.

You might want to revise what you wrote. I don't think that you can claim that for example the kanji still exist in a mere copied state in the Japanese writing system. Chinese characters work perfectly with Chinese - they work less perfectly with Japanese as it is an agglutinating language. They first tried to make it fit, found out it doesn't work quite right and changed the system to suit Japanese better. It is still quite evident that kanji derives from hanzi but even a Chinese speaker would have to study kanji before being able to use them. This, I think, Would not be the case if the kanji were only a copy of something. A copy means something identical, doesn't it?

Besides, classical Chinese culture itself has borrowed elements in it. For example in stage arts, the Jin dynasty zaju was brought about by the Jurcen people from Manchuria - they were not Han Chinese. And still, the Jin dynasty was a great era for stage arts in China. As for other examples, I think you would be quite capable of distinguishing Japanese ukiyo-e from Chinese art. As for having similar style, isn't it the same to claim that all impressionists copied one person only because they have a similar style? Why do we distinguish different impressionists from one another if they all 'copy' something? Because they are able to differentiate themselves even while executing a similar style.

[wsbizwsa]

I mean no derogation of copying. I am try to, with ur consent and assistance, dig into the deformed civilisation which is devoid of its humanistic core

Me? Instigator? How?

[Kthzltje]

"Pity that only my Japanese friend Iron Chef truly understands my post in a very misunderstanging way and that he takes offense."

"I feel wronged with Iron Chef suspecting me of something that i suspect some other posters of on this forum --- fanning hostility."

"But, perhaps as Iron Chef has noticed, there is a serious problem behind the Japanese copying"

LOL, dude... first of all, all I did was move your thread to the APPROPRIATE forum for discussion. It has not in any way shape or form been altered or edited for content. So what exactly is the problem where you feel the need to make statements like those above? If you feel wronged as a result of me doing my job then that's on you. I suggest you click on the link I have below in my sig re: the forum rules to familiarize yourself with the site a bit more.

[nerrttrw]

I mean no derogation of copying. I am try to, with ur consent and assistance, dig into the deformed civilisation which is devoid of its humanistic core

[adariseediups]

The Chinese had several Foreign architects come over to build their new infrastructure in Beijing, mainly because they want to get more westernlike...soon there will be the olympics in 2008...And you tell me the Japanese are copycats ??? I think you should reconsider your opinion my friend !

[Tzqowwyt]

Humanism (from M-W):
1 a : devotion to the humanities : literary culture b : the revival of classical letters, individualistic and critical spirit, and emphasis on secular concerns characteristic of the Renaissance
2 : HUMANITARIANISM
3 : a doctrine, attitude, or way of life centered on human interests or values; especially : a philosophy that usually rejects supernaturalism and stresses an individual's dignity and worth and capacity for self-realization through reason

Could you please be a bit more specific about what exactly is missing in Japanese culture which is so much more present in other cultures?

Nazi Germany was by no means humanistic, but today's Germany is humanistically responsible with its hearty repentance endorsed with forgiveness from its victmised European nations.

[Ephejvll]

Ok, you make that comment about the forum's purpose being for exchange of views and debates, not for karate and boxing, but then you make some comment like the one in bold italics above?

Hmmm...

I am derailing you?

[L6RLnyfl]

Look societies and cultures copy off of each other all the time. It's not because they want to forget their past or imitate others, it's because people choose to have a better living when it's made avaiable to them. It's a part of human nature. People copy off each other all the time to make their lives better, that in no way takes away their individuality. They're still unique and individual in their own right still with knowledge of their own past. It's just that they change certain apparences, situations, concepts, etc to make their life better. No matter how much copying a society or culture does from others, they still stay true to their roots (well for the most part they do depending on the individual).

Doc

The question is "for better or for worse as a whole--- or for better and for worse in different aspects". Right?