Did you know the Phoenix Coyotes lost $117M in 2007? And $72M last year? - DiscussWorldIssues - Socio-Economic Religion and Political Uncensored Debate

**foodselfdourileka** · 10-01-2009, 04:27 AM

Why the **** does the NHL continue to think that a franchise in Arizona will work?

For Christ's sake, MOVE THEM.

**Hetgvwic** · 10-01-2009, 04:35 AM

The league isn't paying Gretzky? Wow.

Shitty deal all round. The only winner in this is Balsillie.

**infinkPoode** · 10-01-2009, 04:39 AM

Winnipeg would be great, but I'd be shocked. It seems Southern Ontario would make the most financial sense; if the Leafs can still make money despite being god-awful for decades, no way a new team cuts into their market share in any significant way.

**Indessasp** · 10-01-2009, 04:56 AM

Why the **** does the NHL continue to think that a franchise in Arizona will work?

For Christ's sake, MOVE THEM.

For the same reason that one in Dallas has done quite well, and one in Nashville broke even last year once they got decent ownership.

**FUNALA** · 10-01-2009, 07:56 AM

Winnipeg would be great, but I'd be shocked. It seems Southern Ontario would make the most financial sense; if the Leafs can still make money despite being god-awful for decades, no way a new team cuts into their market share in any significant way.

A team in Hamilton would not be good for Buffalo.

The real money would be a second team in Toronto.

**JewJoleSole** · 10-01-2009, 08:01 AM

The league isn't stiffing anyone.

They have bid $150MM for a hockey club in bankruptcy.

They are trying to ensure that cash gets to arms-length creditors.

**Jxmwzgpv** · 10-01-2009, 08:07 AM

The league's position is that Moyes owes Gretzky his millions, and Wayne should righfully pursue his cash there.

**invest7manager** · 10-01-2009, 08:07 AM

Moyes is a creditor of the Phoenix Coyotes. I can't understand how Bettman can just wave his hands and say, "I'm not going to pay you."

The league does not accept Moyes' creative accounting. Then Moyes owns the assets of the club and should be able to sell to whomever he wants, and that includes Basillie. Bettman can't seize the assets associated with the club unless he pays the creditors.

**MgpojuWy** · 10-01-2009, 08:13 AM

The NHL's bid specified that Moyes and Gretzky receive nothing from their purchase. The judge rightfully said that it is not their place to decide which unsecured creditors get paid what. That is his (the judge's) job. Ok thanks. I thought that was the case. Much appreciated to know I'm not totally out to lunch on this...

Moyes is not as clear, but it is clear that he pillaged the Coyotes by charging them from his other companies. According to numbers from Moyes in the decision, the Coyotes had an operating loss of $107MM dollars in their 2007 year. The richest clubs in the league do not spend $107MM dollars in total for operations. Moyes' claims are a lot of smoke and fraud I can certainly see it, but it's up to the judge to decide how much and of what, Moyes is entitled to receive as compensation.

**Loonakind** · 10-01-2009, 08:35 AM

I can certainly see it, but it's up to the judge to decide how much and of what, Moyes is entitled to receive as compensation.

He's going to end up getting near zero, and he has a bond that will pay the NHL $30MM for their trouble.

**Barryrich** · 10-01-2009, 09:40 AM

I'll buy them for $0.25.

**SzefciuCba** · 10-01-2009, 04:47 PM

After they moved from Winnipeg their attendance went up.

I think their problems have more to do with many years of not being very good rather than climate. The location of the rink can't help.

**ZXRamon** · 10-01-2009, 05:49 PM

Well yeah, hot new thing, if it hadn't gone up initially then it would've been shocking. But this is a failed experiment that has been going on for years now. Just because the NHL does well in certain southern markets (Dallas), it doesn't mean it's going to work all over the south. The Coyotes are a ****ing joke.

From reports, they did well while they played in Scottsdale. The trouble started when they moved into the new building in Glendale and got worse as a team.

The building in Glendale is blamed for a lot of the attendance woes now. However, it is right beside the football stadium. I'd hazard a guess that a winning team would draw people.

I scratch my head why people are offended by the NHL trying to expand their markets. There seems to be a lot of hostility to the very idea.

**VitaliyMurnov** · 10-01-2009, 08:11 PM

Phoenix has an ice hockey team?

**attractiveweb** · 10-01-2009, 08:16 PM

I scratch my head why people are offended by the NHL trying to expand their markets. There seems to be a lot of hostility to the very idea.

People are offended because it is a hopeless cause that is hurting the league. It's a cultural thing and the US south does not have a hockey culture (nor will they). NASCAR has a better chance succeeding in Canada than the NHL does in the deep south. Just a plain fact NYE.

Personally I hope Bettman is at the reigns of the NHL for another decade. He is most amusing.

**squicscor** · 10-01-2009, 08:27 PM

People are offended because it is a hopeless cause that is hurting the league. It's a cultural thing and the US south does not have a hockey culture (nor will they). NASCAR has a better chance succeeding in Canada than the NHL does in the deep south. Just a plain fact NYE.

Personally I hope Bettman is at the reigns of the NHL for another decade. He is most amusing.

The Dallas Stars seem to do alright. I see plenty of people wearing sports jerseys and other crappy paraphernalia, so I'm assuming there are a lot of fans.

**Kayacterype** · 10-01-2009, 08:35 PM

The reports I continually see and hear claim most of the southern franchises are in trouble. I'd bet Dallas will be soon enough as well.

**moopierof** · 10-01-2009, 08:36 PM

If Phoenix had good marketing like this, we wouldn't be in this situation.

This is the opening montage for the Alaska Nanook's hockey team:

**Peabelilt** · 10-01-2009, 08:40 PM

Exploding Polar Bear... isn't that a Final Fantasy special move?

**Skete** · 10-02-2009, 05:44 AM

I wouldn't believe everything written by Canadian media on the topic if I were you.

Perhaps we should believe the NHL? Remember the stories they told about how successful Phoenix was...?

Plenty of US writers have been saying the same about hockey in the south. SI had an article on it a month or two back.

10-01-2009, 04:27 AM	#1
foodselfdourileka Join Date Nov 2005 Posts 515 Senior Member	Did you know the Phoenix Coyotes lost $117M in 2007? And $72M last year? Why the **** does the NHL continue to think that a franchise in Arizona will work? For Christ's sake, MOVE THEM. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

10-01-2009, 04:35 AM	#2
Hetgvwic Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 523 Senior Member	The league isn't paying Gretzky? Wow. Shitty deal all round. The only winner in this is Balsillie. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

10-01-2009, 04:39 AM	#3
infinkPoode Join Date Nov 2005 Posts 406 Senior Member	Winnipeg would be great, but I'd be shocked. It seems Southern Ontario would make the most financial sense; if the Leafs can still make money despite being god-awful for decades, no way a new team cuts into their market share in any significant way. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

10-01-2009, 04:56 AM	#4
Indessasp Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 458 Senior Member	Why the **** does the NHL continue to think that a franchise in Arizona will work? For Christ's sake, MOVE THEM. For the same reason that one in Dallas has done quite well, and one in Nashville broke even last year once they got decent ownership. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

10-01-2009, 07:56 AM	#5
FUNALA Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 539 Senior Member	Winnipeg would be great, but I'd be shocked. It seems Southern Ontario would make the most financial sense; if the Leafs can still make money despite being god-awful for decades, no way a new team cuts into their market share in any significant way. A team in Hamilton would not be good for Buffalo. The real money would be a second team in Toronto. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

10-01-2009, 08:01 AM	#6
JewJoleSole Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 384 Senior Member	The league isn't stiffing anyone. They have bid $150MM for a hockey club in bankruptcy. They are trying to ensure that cash gets to arms-length creditors. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

10-01-2009, 08:07 AM	#7
Jxmwzgpv Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 434 Senior Member	The league's position is that Moyes owes Gretzky his millions, and Wayne should righfully pursue his cash there. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

10-01-2009, 08:07 AM	#8
invest7manager Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 500 Senior Member	Moyes is a creditor of the Phoenix Coyotes. I can't understand how Bettman can just wave his hands and say, "I'm not going to pay you." The league does not accept Moyes' creative accounting. Then Moyes owns the assets of the club and should be able to sell to whomever he wants, and that includes Basillie. Bettman can't seize the assets associated with the club unless he pays the creditors. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

10-01-2009, 08:13 AM	#9
MgpojuWy Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 445 Senior Member	The NHL's bid specified that Moyes and Gretzky receive nothing from their purchase. The judge rightfully said that it is not their place to decide which unsecured creditors get paid what. That is his (the judge's) job. Ok thanks. I thought that was the case. Much appreciated to know I'm not totally out to lunch on this... Moyes is not as clear, but it is clear that he pillaged the Coyotes by charging them from his other companies. According to numbers from Moyes in the decision, the Coyotes had an operating loss of $107MM dollars in their 2007 year. The richest clubs in the league do not spend $107MM dollars in total for operations. Moyes' claims are a lot of smoke and fraud I can certainly see it, but it's up to the judge to decide how much and of what, Moyes is entitled to receive as compensation. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

10-01-2009, 08:35 AM	#10
Loonakind Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 414 Senior Member	I can certainly see it, but it's up to the judge to decide how much and of what, Moyes is entitled to receive as compensation. He's going to end up getting near zero, and he has a bond that will pay the NHL $30MM for their trouble. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

10-01-2009, 09:40 AM	#11
Barryrich Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 609 Senior Member	I'll buy them for $0.25. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

10-01-2009, 04:47 PM	#12
SzefciuCba Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 544 Senior Member	After they moved from Winnipeg their attendance went up. I think their problems have more to do with many years of not being very good rather than climate. The location of the rink can't help. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

10-01-2009, 05:49 PM	#13
ZXRamon Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 562 Senior Member	Well yeah, hot new thing, if it hadn't gone up initially then it would've been shocking. But this is a failed experiment that has been going on for years now. Just because the NHL does well in certain southern markets (Dallas), it doesn't mean it's going to work all over the south. The Coyotes are a ****ing joke. From reports, they did well while they played in Scottsdale. The trouble started when they moved into the new building in Glendale and got worse as a team. The building in Glendale is blamed for a lot of the attendance woes now. However, it is right beside the football stadium. I'd hazard a guess that a winning team would draw people. I scratch my head why people are offended by the NHL trying to expand their markets. There seems to be a lot of hostility to the very idea. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

10-01-2009, 08:11 PM	#14
VitaliyMurnov Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 449 Senior Member	Phoenix has an ice hockey team? Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

10-01-2009, 08:16 PM	#15
attractiveweb Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 372 Senior Member	I scratch my head why people are offended by the NHL trying to expand their markets. There seems to be a lot of hostility to the very idea. People are offended because it is a hopeless cause that is hurting the league. It's a cultural thing and the US south does not have a hockey culture (nor will they). NASCAR has a better chance succeeding in Canada than the NHL does in the deep south. Just a plain fact NYE. Personally I hope Bettman is at the reigns of the NHL for another decade. He is most amusing. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

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10-01-2009, 08:27 PM	#16
squicscor Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 402 Senior Member	People are offended because it is a hopeless cause that is hurting the league. It's a cultural thing and the US south does not have a hockey culture (nor will they). NASCAR has a better chance succeeding in Canada than the NHL does in the deep south. Just a plain fact NYE. Personally I hope Bettman is at the reigns of the NHL for another decade. He is most amusing. The Dallas Stars seem to do alright. I see plenty of people wearing sports jerseys and other crappy paraphernalia, so I'm assuming there are a lot of fans. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

10-01-2009, 08:35 PM	#17
Kayacterype Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 397 Senior Member	The reports I continually see and hear claim most of the southern franchises are in trouble. I'd bet Dallas will be soon enough as well. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

10-01-2009, 08:36 PM	#18
moopierof Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 519 Senior Member	If Phoenix had good marketing like this, we wouldn't be in this situation. This is the opening montage for the Alaska Nanook's hockey team: Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

10-01-2009, 08:40 PM	#19
Peabelilt Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 408 Senior Member	Exploding Polar Bear... isn't that a Final Fantasy special move? Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

10-02-2009, 05:44 AM	#20
Skete Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 623 Senior Member	I wouldn't believe everything written by Canadian media on the topic if I were you. Perhaps we should believe the NHL? Remember the stories they told about how successful Phoenix was...? Plenty of US writers have been saying the same about hockey in the south. SI had an article on it a month or two back. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote