[kranskregyan]

No good reason?

Israel is a state. Palestine is not. That's for starters. Second, Israel loudly proclaims how wonderful it is, how it's a democracy surrounded by authoritarian monstrosities, etc. If you climb up on top of a mountain and proclaim your moral superiority, you're going to be held to a higher standard, and rightly so. Same with us. The US routinely criticizes other governments for torture and such. But when we do it, suddenly it's fine (or it's "not really torture" or whatever other bullshit excuse we choose to cling to).

This is the basic issue, really: you cannot simultaneously proclaim that you're the "good guys" and all that (greatest nation on earth!!!1111!!!) whilst doing the very things the "bad guys" are doing, for which you label them bad guys. It doesn't pass a basic laugh test, except amongst a certain segment of our own population.

-Arrian

The difference between the good guys and the bad guys is never cut and dry. The Allies firebombed entire cities, and Hitler was kind to dogs. Everybody has the things they're not proud of, and everybody has some redeeming quality. But the problem comes when you demand perfection from the good guys and excuse any barbarism the bad guys commit. The difference between good guys and bad guys is either (a) the good guys are on my side or (b) the good guys are marginally less evil than the bad guys.

Israel killed about 1500 people when it invaded Gaza, slightly less than 1000 were civilians. That's fighting in some of the most densely populated places on the planet, against an enemy that sees nothing wrong with blending amongst the population. Yet it was criticized by the president of the UN General Assembly, Miguel d'Escoto Brockmann, who labeled the offensive "genocide." He wasn't the only one to launch into hyperbole. I've seen a general trend towards people who just go with the conventional wisdom that the Palestinians are victims of Israeli cruelty.

Israel launched thousands of sorties. They were attacking an area with no real civil defense mechanism and greatly diminished medical resources. Even if they weren't actively trying to kill Palestinians, if they were merely indifferent to the civilians, you would have seen a civilian death toll in the tens of thousands. If they were actively trying to murder Palestinians - well - they've got The Bomb. There's really no limit to the damage Israel can cause. But that's not what they do. They do what they can to fight their enemies and limit collateral damage.

Hamas on the other hand, makes no effort whatsoever to discriminate between soldier and civilian. Yet they're lauded by the international community as "resistance fighters" and their war crimes are excused because they're not a state. It's a double standard, and double standards are not right. A crime is a crime no matter who commits it, and no matter who the victim is.

[Idorsearogele]

It needs to be said... "torture".

[Franchise]

Felch,

I've seen a general trend towards people who just go with the conventional wisdom that the Palestinians are victims of Israeli cruelty. They are. And Isrealis are victims of Palestinian cruelty. The whole situation is immensely ****ed up. The thing is that Isreal has massive advantages. The Pals are the underdog, and they did honestly get screwed over long ago. People sympathize with that.

-Arrian

[Matajic]

You do realize that according to the document dump by Obama, the program was considered to be an "absolute success" right?

Source?

The question none of the people at the intelligence agencies can answer is how much of that information could've been obtained without the torture.

I also heard that the ACLU was on the verge of releasing a secret CIA-report from 2004 which states that the permitted interrogation techniques were massively abused. More importantly the report appears to be very critical about the results of the interrogations, and that the approach has not prevented any large attacks.

Maybe it has been released now, not sure.

[ultramDoctoo]

It really is sickening how many Americans agree with you. Do you sit around beating off to the thought of tough guys having their way with prisoners?

Don't knock it till you try it

[miel]

Why is it surprising given the heroes portrayed in movies and TV? I said sickening, not surprising.

-Arrian

[estheticianI]

It really is sickening how many Americans agree with you.

Americans are a practical people. If you can save American lives through "torture" that doesn't do any permanent harm to the terrorists being interrogated, support is a no-brainer for most Americans.

[sykanaxer]

Americans are a practical people.

[CxofxJFm]

Let's not take it down that road. The list of war crimes by Israel and Hamas is considerable. Many of those could be described primarily as minor incidents and provocations, unlike the mediatized rocket fire by Hamas. Still it's naive to claim Israel's innocence. We could go a long way debating this, but for me the point still stands that if Hamas renounces suicide attacks and Israel stops expanding its colonial settlements then a sustainable solution is possible.

Unfortunately neither side feels they should make that first move so it won't happen.

I'm not saying Israel is perfect. I'm saying they are clearly better than Hamas.

PS: the myth about the phone calls and leaflets is a load of bs. There is no strategic advantage whatsoever for the IDF to do that, unless you want to engage in psychological warfare, scaring and intidmidating the population. If your claim is that Hamas soldiers hide amongst the civilians, then why on earth would you alert your foes about your plans anyway. Just doesn't make any sense. Of course it's used as intimidation. But it's not a myth. It's simply psychological warfare by means of warning the civilians.

Hamas hiding among civilians is not a "claim." It's a fact.

PS2:

• Hamas doesn't care much about casualties. Their rocket fire is a political tool to pressurize Israel. It has little to no military value. Granted it's a stupid thing to do since it further aggravates tensions, but there you go: they're a bunch of hatemongering *******s too as we all know.
• Israel reduces civilian casualties to a certain degree since it disposes of far more powerful means, true. I wouldn't exaggerate it though, like I said there's a number of vile acts by the IDF that just don't compete with the Hamas rockets..

It's nice to know you agree with me there.

[Duseshoug]

To fight against terrorists better understand their goals.
Their first goal is not to destroy a country or a building (that's just tools) but to gain the
support and leadership of their community (nation, race, religion, whatever).
So, it is not a good move to help them to achieve said goal.
Instead, should always be tried to isolate the terrorists from its people and, when possible,
to turn their people against them and then help said people to fight them.