[soajerwaradaY]

Welcome back MOBIUS

[infollafago]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory

The only question is who "won."

[ttoothh]

I can't even find TCO's anymore, but I know I saw it...

[68AttendGem]

Welcome back MOBIUS

Who has the toilet with the plumbing running down to ACS? Whenever they flush their crap, here it comes.

[bashansasasasa]

I know you have to pretend to feel bad about hitting the UN, but still...

[DrCeshing]

I know you have to pretend to feel bad about hitting the UN, but still...

I don't know if I like all the UN staff working there. I'm sure there are plenty of people like Mobius if not worse employed.

But I do sincerely dislike hitting such targets.

We are already bombing civilian houses (with advance phone and leaflet warning, mind you) but we have to leave some areas where people can stay to save their lives.

IDF says troops were fired from adjustant buildings and called in artillery and tank fire on the sources of fire. I don't know whether it was an error in recognizing the source of fire, or an error in the weapon trajectory, or maybe even neither and fire was shot from that same building. It was still an error of judgement. We shouldn't fire tank or artillery ammunition at UN areas.

It is clear that this was not something approved by higher echelons since those would have UN areas marked on intel maps, that a tank or an artillery crew might no have.

[Axxflcaj]

The first rocket that goes off, just go right back in.

[sbrpkkl]

Taking Gaza is just a waste of soldiers' lives unless you man up and kick the Palestinians out.

[LfYaRf1S]

Taking Gaza is just a waste of soldiers' lives unless you man up and kick the Palestinians out.

2) the complexity of who will be in charge of the strip after Hamas is gone, which no one is willing to handle, and we don't want the honor either.

They don't want to kick the Pals out because then they'll have to be in charge of the area.

[AndreasLV]

They don't want to kick the Pals out because then they'll have to be in charge of the area.

Why wouldn't they want to be in charge of empty territory?

[wgX44EEn]

So Siro, why do you think Palestinians will behave differently than Israelis when it comes to caving in to violence? If you think that most Palestinians in Gaa will blame Hamas more than the IDF and Israel for the vast destruction and death, then you clearly don't pay attention to Arab sources.

[LookSe]

So Siro, why do you think Palestinians will behave differently than Israelis when it comes to caving in to violence? If you think that most Palestinians in Gaa will blame Hamas more than the IDF and Israel for the vast destruction and death, then you clearly don't pay attention to Arab sources.

There's a difference between caving in to violence and learning lessons about what to do and what not to do.

Israel did not cave in to Hezbullah violence, but it certainly learned good lessons regarding how to protect its interests vs. Hezbullah. Btw, Hezbullah did the same. Which is why, if there is aggression now, it is discrete, and civilian population is not risked.

If Israeli civilian population will be harmed, Hezbullah will suffer immensely.

Regarding my attention to Arab sources - I pay attention to those Arab sources who honestly discuss their situation, and not Al-Manar and Al-Jazeera types who promote the official moqauama line.

On a personal note, I doubt you have watched more arab or palestinian TV, read more arab language forums, newspapers etc, than me.

Mind you, I'm not waiting for an anti-Hamas coup - that is not realistic. But whatever hatred Gazan's feel towards Jews, their leadership will have plenty to ponder about when weighing their tactics.

As for the public - Hamas promised them improvement and brought none. Hamas said that continuous provocation would bear fruit, but it brought war. Hamas claimed their government would rid of the Fatah corruption, but they themselves proved to be corrupt, and intolerant.

I doubt this war does Hamas a favor.

Does it do Israel a favor in the eyes of the average Gazan? A big No. But we hadn't much to lose anyway. And we really did what we could to avoid unnecessary casualties, including an advance warnings, including using smaller and more exact bombs, including dropping hollow bombs to warn people to get away.

Obviously a war in a civilian area will not come without civilian casualties. And it's a shame it has come to this.

[FliveGell]

There is never a winner in these wars, only losers

That's only because international law and opinion won't allow for one side to win. The only way to win a war in this day in age is to be lucky enough to fight your war in an area of the world that the international community doesn't care about or to ignore international opinion altogether. Unfortunately, neither is really an option for Israel.

[mikeydesignzinc]

Exactly.

exactly?!?

won't allow for one side to win


well if we did win wars like we "used to"... we'd be born in Fallout IV already.

[k1ePRlda]

Just curious, the OP has 4x "success" and 3x "fail", so 4 : 3 pro Israel, so why does the thread title not match the assessment?

[TyncTyncSah]

Now now Sloww... none of the personal stuff.
Attack the arguments, and not the posters.

[invasuant]

I still don't see what the problem is with nuking the whole region and then putting it under Chinese stewardship.

[sportbos]

I think that Israel has a complex balance sheet.
We most clearly defeated Hamas, and will likely face an opponent much less prone to wild adventures for the next year or two. Notice how they try to save face by proclaiming Israel has a week to withdraw on its own "or else". They chose a week because they assume Israel will be out in a week anyway.

No, you most clearly FAILED to defeat Hamas because your most important objective - that of stopping Hamas from striking Southern Israel with rockets was not achieved.

FAIL!

We could have easily achieved absolute and photographic victory. We were hours away from entering Gaza, arresting the Hamas leaders and trying / deporting them. If you were only hours away from 'completing' what was a 22 day operation, why did you not finish the job if it was so close to your grasp?

FAIL!

We avoided that for two main reasons:
1) international pressure to stop the incursion
2) the complexity of who will be in charge of the strip after Hamas is gone, which no one is willing to handle, and we don't want the honor either. You failed for one main reason. Cowardice in the face of a failed gamble.

The Israeli government expected Hamas to back down in the face of overwhelming firepower. I bet they figured Hamas would seek a truce after the first wave of attacks, but they miscalculated gravely.

1) If Israel cared even the slightest about international pressure, it wouldn't have started this cluster**** in the first place. Clearly Israel's only chance of success once Hamas refused to buckle was by taking over Gaza street by street, house by house. Hamas called Israel's bluff when they realised it didn't have the stomach for the number of Israeli body bags that that would entail.

2) One of Israel's other (failed) objectives was the destruction of Hamas - how can you now say keeping Hamas in power in Gaza was preferable to someone else!!??? Seriously Siro, your excuses for Israel's failures are so far fetched as to beggar belief!

FAIL!

We are sitting close on the Gaza suburbs, and we have so far annihilated any resistance Hamas has tried to put up. Overwhelming fire power, good intelligence and a good combat engineering force meant that we disamred all of the traps, and there were hundreds of them.

We were fully able to stroll inside Gaza and take what we want, and Hamas was clearly demonstrated to be much weaker than it claimed. Yes, interesting use of the word 'annihilated'...

You annihilated entire blocks of Gaza, then you strolled into those blasted areas of rubble. That is hardly the same as actually taking a city intact from an enemy. Short of razing the entire enclave to the ground and killing virtually its entire population, Israel would have never 'succeeded' using these tactics.

Clearly Israel was too afraid to engage Hamas without embarking on a scorched earth policy of 'total war'.

FAIL!

The Hamas rocket force is decimated. 'Decimated'?

Israel only destroyed 10% of Hamas' rocket force!!? Your failure grows worse with each of your increasingly inept attempts at justifying your nation's embarrassing failure...

Are you sure this 10% wasn't the hundreds of rockets that Hamas fired during Israel's attempts to stop them?

That is like claiming that "Israel destroyed Hamas' rockets because they blew up when they landed in Israel!" Your arguments are getting surreal in their absurdity!

FAIL!

The Hamas military wing has fled into hiding Clearly they were protecting their families! Would you blame them when Israel thinks it is acceptable to kill 4 women and 12 children just to kill one Hamas leader!!???

The political response Hamas will surely face from the civilian population for dragging them into a conflict is yet to come in the following weeks. Indeed, they will further tighten their grip on power just as the population that survived Israel's slaughter in Lebanon rallied around Hezbollah!!!

FAIL!

on the other hand, we didn't manage (yet) to bring about the freedom of Gilad Shalit. Frankly I am surprised Hamas resisted the temptation to slit his throat and dump his body in face of Israel's advancing troops.

FAIL!

And we have proven poor aiming ability with regards to artillery fire, as well as improper consideration for UN areas, which should be kept to a higher standard, and caused unnecessary risk to already suffering refugees. Really? So after all this time defending Israel's 'precision' strikes, you now claim your army can't aim for ****? Which is it, Siro, Hamas was firing from all those schools, Mosques, Ambulances, UN buildings, hospitals OR that you are now claiming that they are incompetent!!?

You can't have it both ways!

EPIC FAIL!!!

[animilius]

The thing with precision weaponry is that you have to know what you're shooting, first.

The weapons are usually quite precise--whatever they're aimed at, they'll pretty much hit.

Whether the target was accurate or not is another matter--does the tupperware factory look like a ammo factory?

(Yes, I realize I'm using the more scientific definitions of accuracy and precision here, but the point remains.)

[dicemets]

I still don't see what the problem is with nuking the whole region and then putting it under Chinese stewardship.

That will only create a new breed of radioactive supermonsters who fight each other over the rubble. Godzilla and Allahrodan. It'll be terrible. The Japanese couldn't handle that, so how could the Chinese?

Felch: do not dare insult Admiral Ackbar, you whore!