[Knillagrarp]

Leave it Blodwin

[vdw4Epsi]

Really?

Well if it was named after him, then why isn't the US called Vespuccia, or my personal favourite, Vespucciland (just down the road from Disneyland...)...?

Places are generally named after a person's surname, not his/her forename, unless they are royals or saints.

Otherwise your capital would be George, D.C. (District of Christopher)...*snigger*

I think you may have been suckered in by some dodgy propaganda...

[b3JOkwXL]

**** the Welsh. The only reason Walses exists is to make all others look good by comparison. Ethiopia, take a bow.

[QysnZWB4]

Originally posted by MOBIUS

Five of the first six Presidents of the USA (and the only Confederate President) were Welshmen...
Actually, they were all Americans.

You're thinking of Tom Jones:

What's new, pussycat?!
Whoa, whoa, whoa!!

[Zhgrlpil]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
Really?

Well if it was named after him, then why isn't the US called Vespuccia, or my personal favourite, Vespucciland (just down the road from Disneyland...)...? He was a cartographer. Supposedly after making maps of the new world he wrote "America" or something close to that on the big empty spots.

[Kryfamid]

So basically the cream of Wales left while the leftover crap stayed behind?

[duawLauff]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
Actually, they were all Americans. All of Welsh ancestry, actually...

Just like about half of the signatories of the declaration of independence were also Welsh...

You're thinking of Tom Jones: I think virtually everyone on this site would agree that Tom Jones would make a better US president than Bush Jnr.

[JediReturns84]

That version of history is still very much under debate, and the 'Amerigo' account is still the more plausible.

[9Goarveboofe]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
Or we can call America 'Vespuccia' if you really insist...

[TouccuraLar]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
Replying to a post on another thread got me thinking...

Did the United States come about as a proxy struggle between the Welsh and the English...?

Just think for a minute about these facts...

Samuel Adams AKA the "Patriarch of Liberty" and "Father of the American Revolution", basically instigated the protests against the Stamp Act, and was behind the Boston Tea Party.

The American Constitution is based on the philosophies of Richard Price.

Five of the first six Presidents of the USA (and the only Confederate President) were Welshmen...

John Adams
Thomas Jefferson
James Madison
James Monroe
John Quincy Adams

Not to mention the All Welsh Civil War between Abraham Lincoln and Jefferson Davis... I have done some research and:

(Note: I'm looking for birthplaces of ancestors in Europe. I am considering any ancestor born in the Americas of unknown ancestry unless I have good reason to believe they were of a certain ancestry. Once I find a European birthplace of an ancestor, I will see how far back that ancestor is and then look down another path. I will post any known ancestries I can find)

John Adams: The closest relative born in Europe was his Great-Grandfather, who is English. Adams also had Great-Great-Grandfather who was born in England. That makes Adams at least 3/16ths English. He may have been descended from the Welsh Ap Adams line, but the Ap Adamses had lived in England since at least 1360.

http://www.whosyomama.com/gabroaddrick3/4/26101.htm

http://homepage.mac.com/james_keller/WC42/WC42_252.HTML

Thomas Jefferson: His mother was born in London (to a Virginian father, but all four of his grandparents are English.) On his father's side I have found 2 Great-Great-Grandparents who were born in England. Jefferson is at least 5/8ths English.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....82.html#I38798

James Madison: On his father's side, 2 English Great-Great-Grandparents. On his mother's side, 1 English Great-Great-Great-Grandparent, plus a Great-Great-Grandparent who was know as "of Lancaster" which means he was more than likely English. Madison was at least 7/32nds English.

http://poslfit.homeip.net/cgi-bin/genea.pl?19957

http://homepage.mac.com/james_keller/PS85/PS85_234.HTML

James Monroe: Little is known about his ancestry. The first birthplace I could find is seven generations back, on his father's side, in Scotland. Go back one more generation and you get Scottish nobility. Go back 4 more generations and you get King James Stuart IV of Scotland.

http://www.livelyroots.com/gerald/18494.htm

John Quincy Adams: see John Adams for his father's side. On Abigail's side, one English Great-Great Great-Grandparent who married someone who was born in Boston in 1640 (I seriously doubt there were many, if any, non-English in Boston 10 years after it was founded.) So, John Quincy Adams was at least 5/32nds English.

Sam Adams: He has the same great-grandfather who I mentioned as English for John Adams. At least 1/8ths English.

I won't do the research on Lincoln and Davis, since they would only have a tiny fraction of non-American Heritage.

Since most of the people in 13 colonies were in their family's 3rd or 4th generation in America at the time these men were born, many of these men would have have few near relatives in Europe. To estimate what the what the rest would have been I will use the percent of American ancestry. Since no earlier numbers exist, I will use the 1790 census numbers that says 2/3rds of the white (I think we can rule out that these men had any black ancestors) population was English. 14% were Scottish or Scotch-Irish, 8.5% German, 3% Dutch, .5% French, .3% Welsh, and 6.5% Other. I will then give each of those groups a portion of the unknown ancestry according to those numbers and add in then known heritage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History..._United_States

John Adams: 13/16ths unknown & 3/16ths English. 73% would be English, 11% Scottish, 7% German, 2.5% Dutch, .4% French, and .25% Welsh, and 5% Other.

Jefferson: There's he was majority English, so these numbers would be useless.

Madison: 25/32nds unknown, 7/32nds English. Only a tiny difference from the Adams numbers.

Monroe: near completely unknown. 66% English, 15% was Scottish or Scotch-Irish, 8.5% German, 3% Dutch, .5% French, .3% Welsh, and 6.5% Other.

JQ Adams: 27/32nds unknown, 5/32nds English. Once again, only a small difference from John Adams numbers.

Sam Adams: 7/8ths unknown, 1/8th English. Still little difference from the John Adams numbers.

So, out of these men, none had any known ancestors who weren't English or American (except for the 1/128th Scottish in Monroe and the Welsh in the Adams which probably would have died out in the the at least 5 centuries and 12 generations in England and America.) Even you add in the estimates for the ancestors in the Americas, the odds that ANY of these men were Welsh is TINY.

On the naming of America, Martin Waldseemüller and his friend Matthias Ringmann are the credited with the name. Waldseemüller made a map based on Vespucci's discoveries. Ringmann made a book, Cosmographiae Introductio, to accompany the map. The reason gven in the book for it being named America is because they felt the should be given a feminine name to go along with Europe, named for Europa and it is called Europa in most languages, and Asia, Asia being a wife of the Titan Iapetus in Greek Mythology. A surname usually doesn't have a feminine form (ruling out using Vespucci's surname,) so they named the the new world after the feminine version of Vespucci's Latinized first name. Americus Vespucius being his Latinized name.

This troll thread is busted

[hhynmtrxcp]

Originally posted by BlackCat

Isn't the troller who made this thread always on the brink of busting ? True

[bunkalapa]

Originally posted by Will9

I have done some research and:

John Adams: 13/16ths unknown... 13/16ths Welsh...

Madison: 25/32nds unknown... 25/32nds Welsh...

Monroe: near completely unknown... Near completely Welsh...

JQ Adams: 27/32nds unknown... 27/32nds Welsh. Once again, only a small difference from John Adams numbers.

Sam Adams: 7/8ths unknown... 7/8ths Welsh...

So, out of these men, I Will9 cannot prove that any of them are not overwhelmingly Welsh... Therefore until you can - they are all Welsh...

And besides, I quote your Wikipedia with my Wikipedia...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...Welsh_ancestry

It says they're all Welsh, so I'll take it's word over yours any day...

On the naming of America, Martin Waldseemüller and his friend Matthias Ringmann are the credited with the name. Waldseemüller made a map based on Vespucci's discoveries. Using your own links:

"ab Americo Inventore ...quasi Americi terram sive Americam (from Amerigo the discoverer ...as if it were the land of Americus, thus America)."

...Americo could just as well be Amerike/Ap Meurig etc...

In 1513 Waldseemüller appears to have had second thoughts about the name, probably due to contemporary protests about Vespucci’s role in the discovery and naming of America. "Theory of the naming of America

Further information: Naming of America

Summary:

* Amerike funded the earlier voyages of Bristol sailors to Newfoundland, beginning in 1479.
* Amerike was the chief sponsor of John Cabot's voyage to Newfoundland.
* In 1955, a letter was found in Spanish archives confirming the discoveries of Bristol sailors in Newfoundland before Columbus.
* Documents in Westminster Abbey indicate that Columbus knew of the Bristolmen's discoveries.
* Derivation of "America" from Amerike, the sponsor of the discovery of Newfoundland is etymologically easier than from "Amerigo Vespucci," the map-maker.
* Two extant versions of the Amerike family's coats of arms include stripes and one, stars and stripes; the older, horizontal, red stripes, and the latter, vertical, blue stripes with a band of stars.

Richard Amerike's connection with the Americas' name surfaced in the 1890s, when the 1497 and 1498 customs rolls, archived in Westminster Abbey, were found to contain his name in connection with the payment of John Cabot's pension.

In 1908 local Bristol antiquarian and butterfly collector Alfred Hudd first proposed the theory that the word America had evolved from Amerike or ap Meryk. Alfred Hudd was a gentleman of some leisure, known as an antiquary who was a member of the Clifton Antiquarian Club of Bristol, founded in 1884 to arrange meetings and excursions for the study of objects of archaeological interest in the west of England and south Wales, and a butterfly-collector and local naturalist and member of the Bristol Naturalists' Society around Bristol.

Hudd proposed that the word "America" was originally applied to a destination across the western ocean, possibly an island or a fishing station in Newfoundland. This would have been before the existence of a continent on the other side of the Atlantic was known to Europeans. However, no maps bearing this name or documents indicating a location of this supposed village are known.

According to Newfoundland and Labrador Heritage,[1] "While it has been difficult to pinpoint the exact time frame of these North Atlantic probes, evidence that they were indeed occurring by the 1490s is found in a report sent by Pedro de Ayala, a Spanish envoy located in London. The year after Cabot's successful transatlantic voyage he wrote Ferdinand and Isabella stating that for the previous seven years the Bristolians had been equipping caravels to look for the islands of Brasile and the Seven Cities. While it is not possible to ascertain whether or not these were large scale ventures and precisely what their motives might have been, Ayala's words seem to supply some proof of westward bound voyages."

There had long been a suspicion that fishing ships in search of cod were regularly crossing the Atlantic from Bristol to Newfoundland before Columbus' first voyage. Bristol merchants bought salt cod from Iceland until 1475, when the King of Denmark stopped the trade. In 1479 four Bristol merchants received a royal charter to find another source of fish. Records discovered in 1955 suggest that from 1480, twelve years before Columbus, English fishermen may have established a facility for processing fish on the Newfoundland coast. In 1960 trading records were discovered that indicated that Richard Amerike was involved in this business. A letter from around 1481 suggests that Amerike shipped salt (for salting fish) to these men at a place they had named Brassyle. The letter also states that they had many names for headlands and harbours. Rodney Broome and others suggest that one of these names may have been "America".

John Cabot (originally Giovanni Caboto, a Venetian seaman) had become a well known mariner in England, and he came to Bristol in 1495 looking for investment in a new project. On March 5, 1496, Cabot received a letter of authority from King Henry VII to make a voyage of discovery and claim lands on behalf of the monarch. It is believed that Amerike may have been one of the principal investors in the building of Cabot's ship, the Matthew.

Cabot is known to have produced maps of the coast from Maine to Newfoundland, though none have survived. He named an island off Newfoundland St. John's. Copies of these maps were sent to Spain by John Day, where Christopher Columbus and Amerigo Vespucci would have seen them. The theory suggests that Cabot may have written the name America (or similar) on his maps, but no extant maps are available to prove this assertion.

Vespucci sailed to South America and the Caribbean with Alonso de Ojeda (Hojeda) in 1499 and Gonçalo Coelho in 1501 and became convinced that these were new lands, not Asia as Columbus believed. Martin Waldseemüller, a German map-maker, published a world map in 1507 using Vespucci's previously published letters. The theory suggests that Waldseemüller assumed that the "America" that Vespucci used was derived from his first name. Waldseemüller provided an explanation of this assumption as an attachment to the map. Vespucci himself never stated that this was the case. There were immediate protests from Columbus' supporters to get the continent renamed for Columbus, but attempts were unsuccessful, since 1,000 copies of the map were already in circulation. On later maps Waldseemüller substituted the words "Terra Incognita," but it was too late; the name America was now firmly associated with the entire northern and southern continent across the Atlantic from Europe."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Amerike

In other words Waldseemüller made a simple mistaken assumption about the origin of the name America (Richard Amerike (or Ameryk) pronounced "America"!) and the rest is history...

This troll thread is busted You have busted nothing, except not being able to prove those presidents are NOT Welsh, and basically providing links about the origin of America's name that prove my claim is far more plausible than yours...

[hs6KnlcW]

Why would anyone want to piss on a Welshman? Buncha perverts!!!!!

[siklop]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
Until someone can prove that these presidents were not made out of cheese, I will assume they were.

I am merely pointing out the absurdity that Will9 has tried to disprove me by pointing out that someone is 1/8th NOT Welsh...

As for Jefferson, he himself thought his ancestry was Welsh:

"The tradition in my father's family was, that their ancestor came to this country from Wales, and from near the mountain of Snowdon, the highest in Great Britain. I noted once a case from Wales, in the law reports, where a person of our name was either plaintiff or defendant; and one of the same name was secretary to the Virginia Company. These are the only instances in which I have met with the name in that country. I have found it in early records..."

And if John Humphrys thinks he's Welsh - then he must be! http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/northwest...efferson.shtml

[fubyFrery]

Taking advantage of the cheap flights to Copenhagen and being welcomed with open arms (and legs) in Tivoli Gardens after midnight...

Yep, those Welsh girls just ain't as easy as the girls from Denmark...

[Grenader]

Originally posted by MOBIUS

Hey I thought you were on my side!?

What about your experiences in Mexico? Yeah, good point, but I've not had the chance to make fun of the Welsh for a while Saying that though I think it is good that America actually derives from a Welsh name, quite a cool fact

[doctorzlo]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
Yeah, good point, but I've not had the chance to make fun of the Welsh for a while Saying that though I think it is good that America actually derives from a Welsh name, quite a cool fact Not to mention the fact that some people think that the Stars and Stripes may have been copied from the same guy's coat of arms...

What is it with these yanks (sorry, Vespuccians - Vesps?) - no ****ing originality...!?

[soprofaxel]

It's scraping the bottom of the barrel a bit if founding America is the best claim to fame the Welsh have!

[PVaQlNaP]

Originally posted by MikeH
They did, they've been found and recorded. Of course people kept records of what other countries were doing, these were countries that traded internationally, traded diplomats, had family ties across nations through royalty, had spy networks and wars. It's not at all hard to believe. It's not proof either. Again, the Vespucci account is the more plausible of the two.