[iceleliewBync]

Unfortunately they're not real conservatives

[Saduyre9de]

This is not merely a US thing. Conservatives the world over hate immigrants.

[lookanddiscover]

Harper's new policy in mind?

[houkbsdov]

Originally posted by Wezil
Harper's new policy in mind? No. I'm no longer plugged into CanPol. What's the policy?

[TheLucyLee]

"Conservatism" in its purest form, favors maintaining the status quo, taking a very skeptical view of any proposed changes to government or society absent a clear need for those changes. People who are conservatives are often willing to accept restrictions on various freedoms rather than risk the destabilization of society.

In that sense, it is quite logical for conservatives as such to be opposed to (or, at least, skeptical of) large-scale immigration, particularly from societies that are culturally distinct from the conservatives' own. (As Pat Buchanan famously put it: a group from England would find it easier to assimilate into American societies than a group from Zululand because of the shared cultural and linguistic background).

True, a supporter of the free market would likely oppose controls on immigration for exactly the reasons KrazyHorse stated in the original post. But this misses the point: although Conservatives (especially in the U.S.) tend to be supporters of the free market, they tend to do so pragmatically, and are quite willing to increase government control over the market to achieve certain goals (typically on social issues such as immigration, or abortion, and also on security issues,) and in doing so will be in opposition to the libertarian free marketeer.

In short: Conservatives are not necessarily Free Marketeers and vice-versa, however much the two may overlap.

[Dokescoonse]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Just frigging open the border to anybody with no criminal record who's not a security concern. Deny new immigrants the social safety net (including medicare). Kick out any you find who cannot hold an address (to avoid people coming and living on the streets off informal charity).

Those who cannot find better fortunes in Canada will go home. Those who stay will not be leeching off native-born Canadians. As far as I can see everybody is better off (except for those who are out the cost of a plane ticket). In short and medium term; wages would be lower. (for long term, nobody can know) and if you have a minimum wages; unemployment will increase.

In long term it can increase the incentive to go to college.

[Thydaysuh]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Burkean conservatism is dead, jkp. Burke

[MortgFinsJohnQ]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
the government can "manage" migration better than the market? Most conservatives people are idiots.

[DJElizardo]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Burkean conservatism is dead, jkp. But even modern conservatism contains the kernel of skepticism about that which is new. Modern American conservatives may lack the panache of a Burke, but in the broadest strokes, their concerns are the same.

Even the religious conservatives view themselves as conducting a rear-guard political action to protect their faith and way of life.

EDIT: And again, even modern conservatives are not necessarily the guardians of the free market.

[loyalgagora]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
If you want, arrange for a yearly transfer to native-born Canadians of X thousand dollars financed by taxes on immigrants.... That makes immigrants second-class citizens

[h0ldem]

Originally posted by snoopy369


jkp has the answer to your question, whether you agree or not Given that most conservatives have been willing to experiment in the past by drastically reducing regulation and marginal tax rates on the highest brackets you might find me a little bit skeptical of the legitimacy of this philosophy when it's applied narrowly to a single issue.



In other words, I accept that some are mouthing the words. But what's the real reason?

[heinz_1966]

The real reason is that conservatives don't like anything that will drastically change their society... like immigrants.

[sposicke]

Originally posted by Patroklos
I can't understand why some liberals still own private property either. Much of modern American liberalism is a confused mishmash. American conservatives have had (for a few decades) a more unified and coherent political philosophy (despite what anybody thinks of its truth).

[Pataacculako]

I'm pretty sure almost all of the anti-immigrant conservatives are poorer and/or populists. The Wall Street types are all for immigration.

So it's poorly masked xenophobia and/or class "interests".

[MzTT]

Hmmm, interesting to hear yousay that KH. I have heard the same thing stated about conservatism being a mishmash with fiscal/family values/religious/market/privacy types all included under one hat when in reality they have little to unite them anymore.

Which would be my main objection to the OP, that "conservatives" are not of one mind on everything.

[petrarkaponye]

That's probably not an unreasonable statement. I certainly don't feel united with the family values/religious types...

[JacksHH]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
the government can "manage" migration better than the market?

Except for those who call for a total ban on immigration, those who wish to restrict immigration generally want the gubmint to decide (usually by prioritising highly skilled individuals) who gets in and who doesn't.

I thought conservatives were convinced of the government's inability to intelligently intervene in the labour market? If they're smart enough to figure out what the "economy needs" in terms of external labour supply then why not just have them set wages and prices too? Government management tends to work.

In long term it can increase the incentive to go to college. We're seeing the complete opposite of this.

[pinawinekolad]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse


In short and medium terms costs would be lower too.

Don't fall into the one-sided fallacy here. I don't see how lower cost can help rising wages in short & medium term. What I see is lower wages for the entire society in short term.

I would tend to agree with you in long run. But I will never ever accept mass immigration for the reason that it bring too high social cost.

The cost of a second class citizen could be translated as the rate of your inmate for black people in U.S. Or the racial problem in France, England and other European country.

[pupyississido]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Hmmm, interesting to hear yousay that KH. I have heard the same thing stated about conservatism being a mishmash with fiscal/family values/religious/market/privacy types all included under one hat when in reality they have little to unite them anymore.

Which would be my main objection to the OP, that "conservatives" are not of one mind on everything. Interesting point. A hypothesis could be that the fiscal conservative branch is now being brought into direct conflict with the nativist xenophobia branch. Previously the fiscal conservatives/free marketeers didn't give a **** about the social issues and the nativists didn't give a **** about the fiscal/economic issues. Immigration brings them in direct conflict.

While I think there is some truth to this, I think you underestimate the extent to which the two groups (market and nativism) overlap.

[Kimeoffessyr]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse


Aortion has been legal for ages. Religious displays in schools have been illegal for ages. Immigration has been significant to the US since the dawn of time.

All the opposing views are therefore for CHANGES. As jkp said above, it's not like conservatives suddenly become supportive of everything that happens. Undoubtedly over TIME this will happen - over a century or so - but not in a generation or two. Conservatives support not specific laws, but the 'general lifestyle of the nation' I would suggest - they want an America that is representative of what they consider American (ie, the "MADE IN USA" crowd definitely fall here - supporting American ideals through industry) and thus oppose legal abortions because that symbolizes a move away from what they consider American (ie, good christian morals).