[Celeliamend]

Guys, why are you actually talking to Ves? Surely everyone noticed long ago he's just stupid and there's no point.

[gamecasta]

Well, if he doesn't have the army behind him, who gives a rat's ass about you and your buddies with semi-automatic rifles and handguns? This is not 1780. Cutting-edge military technology is not available to the common man, and if it were legal he could never afford it, and if he were given it he wouldn't know how to use it.

[251EPyso]

This thread makes my eyes bleed.





Keep it coming!

[geasurpacerma]

Originally posted by Vesayen
A. There would be MASSIVE defection in the army
B. El Presidente would loose whatever public support he had. Both of which would happen whether the bombed dissidents were armed with Kalashnikovs or sticks and stones. The armament of the citizenry is irrelevant compared to the loyalty of the far better-armed military.

Also, I haven't read in depth on the Holocaust or Stalin's Russia, but IIRC Hannah Arendt lists deep political apathy and disillusionment as one of the necessary initial conditions for totalitarianism to take root. Hitler came to power with a substantial chunk of the public supporting him and a far larger chunk just shrugging and saying, "oh, whatever."

[OlegSan]

Archie Bunker made this point decades ago. He argued we could foil air hijackings by passing out guns to all the passengers when they got on the plane and then collecting them at the end of the flight.

[zlopikanikanza]

If we gave everyone nukes we could eliminate almost all problems within a few hours.

[Hervams]

I'd have popped him. The guy in the mall, getting to the point.

[Enjoymms]

The truth is most people are killed by their friends and family, not by strangers.

[uchetrip]

Originally posted by Vesayen
Not at all.

Criminals and the deranged cannot be controlled by laws. Criminals ignore them, the insane as well, if they want guns, they can go get them. I don't think anyone has properly rebutted this point.

"The insane, if they want guns, can go get them?"

REALLY?

No seriously. In a country like NZ, one requires a firearms license in order to buy a gun. Concealable weapons and automatic weapons, especially concealable automatic weapons, are nearly impossible to get, with or without a license.

I mean, you'd need SERIOUS criminal connections to get your hands on such a weapon, being merely insane would NOT be enough.

There are laws which mandate firearms to be locked in a safe, if you are insane and decide to just steal a gun, you will not have too much luck (of course some people don't follow the law).



This means, in order for an insane person to go on a rampage with a gun, it has to work like this:

1) A person has a gun.
2) The person goes insane.

If the person goes insane before acquiring a gun, it will take him much time and effort to acquire a gun.

And noting also, that the gun he does eventually acquire, is not likely to be a particularly potent one, most likely it will be a bolt-action hunting rifle or shotgun. Both of these have limitations when it comes to killing more than a few people. YES, a well trained marksman with the hunting rifle could take down half a dozen people maybe, especially with a good concealed position and the element of confusion, but again we're talking an insane person, everyone sees him totting this huge ass rifle and runs away screaming, he can't hit them because they're fast moving targets, he certainly can't get headshots.
The shotgun can only kill one or two people, then has to be reloaded, which may present difficulties, it requires the gunman carry around extra shells and also know how to quickly reload - the more time he spends fumbling around reloading, the more time there is for others to get away, or to tackle his ass. YES, someone skilled with using a shotgun would be able to reload a lot more quickly, but we're talking an insane person.

So again, in order for a shooting to happen in NZ, the person needs to already have a gun, already be skilled in it's use, then go insane.

Bringing up the criminal is a detraction, I'm making no distinction on whether the gun and gun-skill is acquired legally or otherwise. Criminals as a rule do not go around shooting people willy-nilly, if someone gets the chance to shoot at them, even in theory, they're being a lousy criminal. Of course a criminal can go insane and on a rampage, just like a law-abiding citizen can go insane and on a rampage.

As a rule however, in NZ, the criminal element would own fewer guns and less potent guns, only the ones with very good connections and very good at evading police would have automatic rifles or pistols. That they are highly skilled at what they do, means they are unlikely to be deterred by guns in the hands of sheeples. They wont put themselves in a position to be shot at.

Gun control works. It may not be a silver bullet for all gun-related woes, but it greatly reduces the scope for all gun-related deaths.

Gun control does not mean eliminating guns from society. It means... controlling the use of guns! It means, restricting the ownership of guns, and restricting the types of guns which can be owned.

[PebydataFeents]

Blake, please present evidence for your claim that crazy people are incapable of being competent murderers. There are many different types of crazy, and you can be convinced that the Illuminati are tracking you through transmitters in your dental fillings and still retain deadly skill with any number of weapons. So long as you don't have the shakes, or hallucinations, or something like that, you can be completely nuts and perfectly skilled at killing people. It's just a matter of thinking you have to eliminate all the redpills before the Agents take them over, then training for a couple of months.

EDIT: Or was it the blue pill? It's been a while since I saw the first Matrix, I just know it's a popular delusion for uncreative psychotic types to adopt.

[shemadagaswer]

I thought Vesayen was trolling when he invoked the "I need a gun to keep the King out of my house" argument.

[Sadsidioribre]

Originally posted by Ninot
I thought Vesayen was trolling when he invoked the "I need a gun to keep the King out of my house" argument. sounds like a Simpsons quote. So it has to be trolling.

[boanuatiguali]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Vesayen's not intelligent enough to troll. Intelligent enough to pass the LSAT though

[ImmitsRom]

I know it's been said already, but let's put it starkley. Which is likely to produce more casualties:

a) A lone nutter firing into a crowded mall; or
b) A lone nutter firing into a crowded mall, and a bunch of gun-toting amateurs returning fire?

In answering, remember that (1) a lone nutter isn't likely to be deterred by the fact that other people are carrying guns, since he's nuts to begin with, and (2) the people returning fire will be the kinds of macho fantasists and/or skittish paranoids who would take a gun along while running out to pick up Tickle Me Elmo.

Make sure to show all your work...

[pheelixoss]

Originally posted by Elok
It's just a matter of thinking you have to eliminate all the redpills before the Agents take them over, then training for a couple of months.

EDIT: Or was it the blue pill? It's been a while since I saw the first Matrix, I just know it's a popular delusion for uncreative psychotic types to adopt. For the truly paranoid, I'd recommend the little blue pill. Apparently it does something rather like caffeine - it can keep you up all night.

[awagsFare]

Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia
It doesn't take brains to be a law student. I won't tell anyone if you wont.

[Efksqhyu]

Originally posted by Blake

A country which mandates every home having an assault rifle and the occupants trained in it's use and safety, with a culture of taking pride in being part of the homeland defense, does not necessarily have poor gun control This is ringing a faint bell. Is this... Switzerland?

*goes to Wikipedia*