[carline]

I'm stunned at the level of prejudice and superioritism it displays

[WeestDype]

Is aneeshm defending Islam?

[Kemapreedasse]

Eh, they were written in the fifties. What do you expect, a multi-cultural lovefest? And what kind of adult, uninformed or not, bases his or her opinion of...vague orientalism (I never could tell which exact country or culture Calormen is supposed to represent, it's sort of a mishmash) on a children's fantasy book? That sort of idiot would also come to the conclusion that lions are benevolent deities, and soon be killed off by natural selection.

And Calormen is not an Islamic civilization, it's polytheistic. Religion-wise, it's classical paganism with a barbaric twist, but the rest of their culture is decidedly middle eastern. I guess Narnia is encouraging us to despise pre-Mohammed Arabs, who died and/or lost all influence over 1000 years ago. Trans-temporal prejudice is the worst kind, you know.

[giturbewan]

A Horse and His Boy is the best of the series, too.

[yatrahnualenu]

Originally posted by aneeshm
Calormen is a complete photocopy of the ideal Baghdadian society of the Caliphate period as described in the Arabian Nights. It's there in every single detail. Except they're POLYTHEISTIC, and worship deities more akin to the ancient Egyptian ones than to Allah. There is no mention of any figure like Mohammed, and the Tisroc is supposedly descended from the god Tash. Yes, it's very similar to the Caliphate--except there's no Caliph. They have similar architecture and local hierarchies, etc.

And I've only read excerpts from Arabian Nights, but from what I recall of it Calormen would actually be cleaned up a good deal. They don't mistreat blacks and Jews, for example, though neither group exists in that world so it doesn't mean much. Calormen is a collection of vague Oriental concepts about which Lewis knew relatively little; being a medievalist, he was most informed about ancient European cultures. A mishmash of European cultures became Narnia, and a mishmash of Asian cultures became Calormen.

Have you read all of the books? Because what's odd is that there are decent, in fact quite noble, Calormenes, it's just that their society is decadent and cruel and teaches most of them to follow suit. In other words, exactly what you've been accusing Islamic culture of from day one...except again, the Calormenes are not Islamic.

[Wluwsdtn]

I think it's responsible of aneeshm to point out this problem.

I don't have kids, but if I did & they read these stories, this would give me a chance to discuss prejudices with them.

[Raj_Copi_Jin]

...dude, the Arabian Nights are about a guy who catches his wife cheating and goes nuts, marrying a different woman every night, screwing her, and then having her executed. Every Jew character is a dishonest scoundrel, every black character is dirty, ugly, stupid and mean, and women are almost entirely subservient.

Let me see my copy of the Nights, now. Ah, I remember some of these. Like "Prince Behram and the Princess Al-Datma," described on the back of the book as "a delightful early version of The Taming of the Shrew." That was a good 'un, and I think Shakespeare's version would have been much improved if he'd kept the part where Petruchio throws Katharina to the ground and rapes her.

I would hate to see someone's enjoyment of these stories ruined by the unflattering portrayal in Narnia.

[AgJ5mNXM]

Originally posted by Elok

...dude, the Arabian Nights are about a guy who catches his wife cheating and goes nuts, marrying a different woman every night, screwing her, and then having her executed. Every Jew character is a dishonest scoundrel, every black character is dirty, ugly, stupid and mean, and women are almost entirely subservient.

Let me see my copy of the Nights, now. Ah, I remember some of these. Like "Prince Behram and the Princess Al-Datma," described on the back of the book as "a delightful early version of The Taming of the Shrew." That was a good 'un, and I think Shakespeare's version would have been much improved if he'd kept the part where Petruchio throws Katharina to the ground and rapes her.
I've read the Arabian Nights, in the full, uncensored version.

I remember that there was only one explicit reference to Indian temples and the idols in them, and that was followed by "May Allah smash them utterly".

I know the criticisms you're talking about, and they're all valid, but it is still important to note that such a portrayal can still lead to prejudice in a child. That is all that I'm trying to say, nothing more.

[valiumcheapll]

Yes, I'm reading them in that order. I'll get back to you when I finish, then.

[Lt_Apple]

Perhaps aneeshm is just more easily influenced than children.

[atmowasia]

I don't get the problem with bashing Oriental Despotism.

[Tilmbeinymn]

How much did Fu Manchu pay you, Heresson?

[Klavalala]

The main thing for me to remember:

Narnia was written by a Christian theologian in the early 20th century.

Expecting it to show modern sympathies is rather like expecting a book from a 1700s Mississipian to portray blacks as intelligent or human ... an unreasonable expectation.

So long as they are portrayed as what they are - Christian allegories - I see nothing wrong with them. Everyone I know is well aware of the religious side of things, even children.

[himecthekWiff]

No he's saying Christian theology in the early 20th century can hardly be expected to be modern.

[Seasmillets]

Originally posted by Sprayber
I would be interested to see aneeshm's opinion of Lord Of The Rings and the Tolkein legends. Don't encourage him.

[AndyPharmc]

The idea of oriental despotism that Lewis relies on was a very influence strain of throught in the 1950s. That Lewis let it influence his work is unsurprising. Especially his use of it as an unChristrian Other to Narnia. But the Narnia books are enjoyable even if you approach them with a strong anti-Christian prejudice, so what does it matter?