[LsrSRVxR]

Sweden.

[salomal-qask]

Originally posted by bipolarbear
A good friend and I were talking about the founding fathers recently and realized that we couldn't think of a country whose government wasn't the result of some sort of revolution or the product of an occupation by some insidious foreign power. Originally posted by Adrian Hon
The UK. 1066 and the Norman occupation.

[r9tbayfC]

Originally posted by CyberShy
Civilization is most of the time being born through war and revolution and anarchy.

That's why people can't say: "It's a mess in Iraq and Afghanistan, blame Bush" since that mess would have happened anyway eventually. Countering a factual mess with a hypothetical mess isn't that great of an idea.

[RildFiemodo]

1066 was an outright invasion, and 1688 was partly an invasion too.

[uranbigis]

What about Iceland? Viking settlement can hardly count as "occupation by foreign power", or can it?

[Dastyh]

The Russian Federation came about from the collapse of the old regime. Maybe that counts here.

[mirex]

removed

[Junrlaeh]

removed

[Chooriwrocaxz]

Don't get all bipolar on us now, dear... I mean bear!

[megatrendsZ]

Originally posted by CyberShy


But people blame Bush for the current mess only with the knowledge from now. If there's a mess "on the ground" now, then of course people should take that into account, no?

I say that with the knowledge on before the decision of Iraq was good, since the current mess was unavoidable in the end anyway. 1. Are you now claiming the mess was unavoidable? Then you do exactly use the "knowledge from now". If you mean it was clear that it was unavoidable before the invasion, your complaint about people blaming Bush "only with the knowledge from now" is wrong.

2. Aside from this I still reject your "was unavoidable" bit if you mean this kind of mess would have come for sure with or without invasion. That's still just speculation, totally unprovable.

[DailyRingtone]

No one's refuted Sweden yet, btw. I'm too lazy to check wiki to confirm.

[zithromaxlinks]

Yes, but we hit that point by post #6

[reaciciomarep]

Originally posted by bipolarbear
I know it's my long overdue karma to have a thread of mine turned to sh** but, could we move the Iraq crap to another thread? I was more interested in how the revolutionary mindset present at the inception of most governments has affected the way their structure and operation. Ok, sorry, but I'm an evil threadjacker

As for "revolutionary mindset" -- I dunno if we can speak of an outspoken mindset centuries after those revolutions took place (sure there are other more recent cases). Because after establishing their new rule (or form of rule/gov/whatever) the revolutionaries of the past would probaly rather be interested in preserving what they achieved...

[ValdisSeroff]

Originally posted by Ecthy
Kuci, another law is that Iraq threads will eventually turn into spamfests FACT

[squicscor]

Continue the Iraq discussion in this thread: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...hreadid=165593

I'll remove the content of my posts, if the other Iraq-debaters want to do the same.
I'm sorry for threadjacking your thread. I tried to stay within the topic and had the idea that you wanted to go this way anyway. I hope this settles the issue.

[HaroTaure]

Originally posted by Ecthy
CyberShy is the prime example of a "nice Christian"

[img]http://av.rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9ibyJxG_DpG78EA3AOHBqMX;_ylu=X3oDMTBwanIybjR qBHBndANhdHdfaW1nX3Jlc3VsdARzZWMDc3I-/SIG=12e9qc9gn/EXP=1178357190/**http%3a//www.monasharma.de/tv/tv_bilder/switch/christen2.jpg[/img] How did you found my picture?
Just a google image search on "CyberShy"