[9Goarveboofe]

Another question: if we are made in the image of God, is out consciousness also made in God's image? Because that is the essence of his power, and if our consciousness is also the same as his, then we also have the power to create souls.

[Verger99]

Actually, it's not a troll, it's a serious question. I deliberately chose a provocative title so that people would be more inclined to read through the rather long and involved argument which I presented.

[BurdenRobert]

aneeshm doesn't troll.

[Quiniacab]

Originally posted by aneeshm
Another question: if we are made in the image of God, is out consciousness also made in God's image? Because that is the essence of his power, and if our consciousness is also the same as his, then we also have the power to create souls.
Some would say so, and thats the basis for the Kabbalistic tradition of the Golem. OTOH theres some discussion of what the "essence of his power" is in the Kabbalistic lit as well. The rationalist tradition, following Rambam, OTOH denies that such details about G-d are knowable by man, and discourages such speculation.

[asypecresty]

God pretty much always works through people. Prophets aren't perfect, there are lots of evidences of any the best of them making major mistakes. I think most (all?) Prophets respond to God in some way... and were followers of God to begin with.

Also, in OT times people weren't atheists. It wasn't reasonable. So the question wasn't is there a god.. it was what god should I obey, and how should I do it.

Additionally, God doesn't promise to give everyone equal chances. This comes again and again in both the OT and the NT. I mean, consider the parable of the talents. People aren't given equal chances, but everyone is given a chance.

To paraphrase the concept: If you are given 100$ and Lordshiva is given 10000$ should you complain? Or should you be glad that you were given 100$? (which you don't deserve). I think that there is even a parable of Christs: "a farmer needed workers for the harvest.. he went out in the morning to ask for workers and offered them a days wage. They took it and worked, at noon he decided he needed more workers to get the harvest done, so went back and hired more, offereing them a days wage. Finally, in the evening there was still more that needed doing, so he went and hired more workers, offering them a days wage. At the end of the day, he gave everyone the same wage, despite some working a lot more for it and some a lot less. Similiarly it is with God."

The Jews definitely are a Chosen people.

Jon Miller

[CVEGK7mV]

Originally posted by snoopy369
I stick by my rating and post. I don't deny your right to stick by it, the same way that I don't deny the possibility (nay, overwhelming probability) of you being totally and utterly wrong in what you have posted.

[Abaanto]

BTW, there is a pretty common idea in Christianity (NT based, and reasonable I think) that the Jews were suppose to spread God's worship to the surrounding nations. To be an example.

This is one of the failings of Hezikiah (SP?), who was otherwise a good king.

I personally think that through all the time of persecution, a certain amount of insularism arose. And it is this that gives the current Jewish practice to discourage converts.

JM

[mtautomoscow]

Originally posted by aneeshm


I know that Judaism is the most "intellectual" of these three religions (it's also the only one I can trust not to go "looney" on me every few hundred years, as the other two have done so throughout history), so I'm sure there must be some "solution" to this problem, I just wanted to know what it was.

It is also possible that all three religions have separate answers to this question, and I genuinely don't know the answer, so I'm asking.

But as you said, I won't take the statements of Christians of Muslims as speaking for Judaism. 1. I wouldnt say J is 'more intellectual' certainly Aquinas and Ibn Rashid were no slouches. Its just different, is all.

2. Im not sure there is a "solution" but definitely some wrestling with the issues that would be worth exploring, unfortunately I really dont know it well enough to rattle it off.

[Ankeseiband]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

1. I wouldnt say J is 'more intellectual' certainly Aquinas and Ibn Rashid were no slouches. Its just different, is all.
Jews are, IIRC, the only ones who encouraged scholarship, even if it led you down uncomfortable roads. Scholarship was an absolute good (with certain obvious exceptions). The only other group(s) to do this was the Hindu priesthood (and it's still an absolute virtue, among most), the Buddhist monastic order, the Chinese bureaucracy (IIRC - I'm not sure about this), and the Greek intellectual elite.

During Christianity's history before the Enlightenment, that sort of thing was not welcome (to grossly understate it).

That sort of intellectual intimidation ("Don't go down a road which may lead to you questioning your faith") is still dominant in Islam today. In CFC's "Ask a Muslim" thread, I asked whether it was permissible for common Muslims (non-theologians) to study philosophy which may lead to them questioning their faith. He said that it was not, and that only Muslims with the necessary intellectual tools to "refute" anything which went against the faith. Now what's the point of such study - you know the conclusions in advance, you're only trying to justify them.

Originally posted by lord of the mark

2. Im not sure there is a "solution" but definitely some wrestling with the issues that would be worth exploring, unfortunately I really dont know it well enough to rattle it off.
Neither am I sure that a solution exists - I'm just throwing out the question, hoping somebody can answer it.

[Meowmeowz]

Err, as I said, look at Jonah. He doubted God. Moses tried to tell God he couldn't do it.

It was a different time... As I said, it wasn't reasonble to be an atheist. People beleived in magicians.

On to Christ.

Christ was God, but was disconnected from God due to sin, so didn't feel the surety of God's presense at all times.

I actually suspect, that if an Angel appeared to people here. That many would still not follow God. Sure, they might stop being atheists, but that is different than following God.

Jon Miller

[BartRonalds]

Ramtha approves of this thread.

[hubua990]

Not doubted in the existence of God. Doubted in the power of God.

Otherwise he wouldn't have run.

Maybe others would be a better example (like Abraham).

JM

[derty]

As I said existence isn't the issue.

JM

[nonDosearrany]

Once more, beleif in existence isn't the issue.

JM

[Sxedlawb]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
Once more, beleif in existence isn't the issue.

JM It's the issue I raised. I'd really welcome an answer as to that.

[Grennios]

@to the thread
We should not discuss the violent past of Christianity in this thread, if you want, we should create another thread to discuss this issue; otherwise the discussion will go to another subject and we will lost our times on infertile debates...


@Aneeshm
Prophets can lose their faith sometimes. We remember Jesus Christ when he was on the cross, and he cried(in Matthew); "Father, Why did you abandoned me?" (grossly translated from French)

As soon, as the prophets stop seeing God, they need to have faith. It's a lot like love; as soon you don't see your beloved one, doubt can arise...

@Everybody:
Is there any prophets who have seen God?

I was under the impression, that God can't be seen, otherwise the person would be consumed.

[AlexBrith]

Originally posted by cronos_qc
@Aneeshm
Prophets can lose their faith sometimes. We remember Jesus Christ when he was on the cross, and he cried(in Matthew); "Father, Why did you abandoned me?" (grossly translated from French)

As soon, as the prophets stop seeing God, they need to have faith. It's a lot like love; as soon you don't see your beloved one, doubt can arise... Exactly, even He was cut off from God.

JM

[BCVB9SOc]

As I said..

Beleif in God... not Beleif in the existence of God.

JM

[Intory]

The nature of Christian belief is so tied up into atheism-theism arguments today that you will pardon me for falling into an error regarding the nature of belief that is expected of Christians, if I have so fallen into such an error.

[CarmenSanches]

Originally posted by aneeshm


My argument is based on the fact that God reveals himself to his Prophets, thus providing them undeniable proof of his own existence, thus negating the need for faith - that the only people who truly know God are faithless (the same way that a mathematician has no "faith" in higher-level mathematical ideas). It isn't quite that simple.

The line between taking something on faith and having undeniable proof isn't as clear as you suggest. Though I'd be interested in hear what your ideas of what represents undeniable proof.

Lets say God speaks directly to someone. So you're walking around and you start hearing voices. Now, is that God or are you just crazy? The person with faith would say God and be a prophet. The person without faith would go on medication and have himself committed. So faith is most certainly still necessary for that prophet. And as the Bible shows, even prophets and holy men do have doubt at times.

Likewise there are many people today who aren't considered prophets, but have seen enough evidence of God's presence in this world that if you asked them, they'd tell you they have undeniable proof that God exists. God didn't descend bodily from the heavens to shake their hand and have a conversation, but whatever they have seen or heard or experienced was enough.