[onlyfun_biziness]

You have a remarkable talent for understantment, Jon.

[Fluivelip]

Suicide bombers are die hard.

[Old-old-Ivy]

Putin's getting to you, isn't he?

[Sadsidioribre]

A Swede has no idea. A Swede can make that kind of statement.

[Jalieteplalry]

I'm a what? Oh, now you've gone too far.

[EvonsRorgon]

[SIZE=1] let us be at peace for a while.

Jon Miller Thats what yanks do, they bomb some small country every 2 or three years.

The difference is now they have been stuck in iraq for years, and some yanks actually get killed.

American isolationism is a myth.

[dhrishiasv]

I want you to not that in the beginnings posts of this thread it's been said that USA wants to conqueor the world and are thought to be isolationist.

Well, alll of you can kiss my ass. There's no making all happy, so my vote goes to your happiness doesn't count. How do you like that?

[datingcrew]

You mean start?

[LoloLibia]

Whiner.

[tomspoumn]

Don't we need a perpetual war in a foreign land to distract people from the problems at home? Those are depressing.

[medprof]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly
Actually, it's a variation of Bush's recent argument that all Americans really are making sacrifices for the war, because we all have to listen to depressing news on tv.

I wish I were kidding. I know you're not kidding, because I, too, heard Bush say it. When I did, I cringed and almost felt like holing up somewhere out of sight from the rest of the world.

My God. Sacrifices? The general American public has made sacrifices, Mr. Bush? I call BULLSH*T. The only people who have made any *real* sacrifices are the families of the men and women we've got fighting (and dying and being wounded) in Iraq and Afghanistan. The rest of us? Oh, yes, we've had to watch depressing news on television, read it in the newspapers and on the Internet, and listen to it on the radio. Yeah, that's some sacrifice, ain't it, folks?

Mr. Bush, your daddy knows what sacrifice is. Your father — former President George H.W. Bush — might have been born with a silver spoon in his mouth, but he *fought* in World War II. His bomber was shot down by the Japanese. He lost men under his command. Even if you disagree with the elder Bush's politics, it can't be denied that at least he of the Bush clan made sacrifices for his nation. Real sacrifices, unlike his inept son who now occupies the White House.

Mr. Bush, do you know who else knows what real sacrifices are? Tom Brokaw does. So does your father. They're "The Greatest Generation." They're my great-grandfathers, great-grandmothers, grandfathers and grandmothers.

They're the ones who lived on food and fuel rations while the consumer assembly lines were converted into fulltime war production lines. They're the ones who planted Victory Gardens in order to supplement their meager rations of food. They're the ones who hunted for loose bits of scrap metal to send in to the war plants, because *every* little bit helped. They're the ones who paid higher taxes, who endured price controls AND, on top of everything else, they're the ones who buried their sons, returning in coffins from the battlefields in Europe, the Pacific and elsewhere.

Mr. Bush, you say America and its allies are in a global struggle for the future, a War on Terrorism that has no end date and can rear up anywhere, anytime. If that's the case, why aren't you asking Americans to make real sacrifices? Why aren't the armament factories up and running? Where's the draft? Where's the genuine change — i.e. the Marshall Plan — in the Middle East, where our armies are? Maybe times have changed since World War II ended more than 60 years ago, but, c'mon! Getting tax cuts and being told to help the economy by shopping just doesn't seem like sacrifices to me.

Nor does making a "sacrifice" by experiencing the war via the media cut the mustard.

A somewhat disillusioned,

Gatekeeper

[i6mbwwdh]

We should ramp up the culture slider by another 10%...

[Justlovemy]

This is a stupid war Donegeal. There's no reason to say "oh, we're only losing X guys a day so it's not that bad!" when there's no good reason for them to be there in the first place.

And consider that them being there has been a huge problem restricting our options for dealing with Iran.

[gagagaridze]

I view the Iraq theater of the war as a pissing match with big consequences. The U.S. has to prove that it can stick with a military action in the M.E. Unfortunately, the U.S. has a reputation in the region for lack of fortitude. War fatigue is an important part of that, but I note that war fatigue ebbs and flows.

[Anteneprorid]

War! huh-yeah
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing
Uh-huh

War! huh-yeah
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing
Say it again y'all

War! huh good God
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me?

Ohhh? War! I despise
Because it means destruction?
Of innocent lives

War means tears
to thousands of mothers eyes
When their sons go to fight
and lose their lives

I said - War! Huh Good God y'all
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing
Say it again

War! Whoa, Lord ...
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me?

War! It ain't nothing but a heartbreaker
War! Friend only to the undertaker
War! It's an enemy to all mankind
The thought of war blows my mind

War has caused unrest in the younger generation
Induction then destruction-
Who wants to die?

Ohhh? War Good God y'all
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing
Say it, Say it, Say it

War! Uh-huh Yeah - Huh!
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me?

War! It ain't nothing but a heartbreaker
War! It's got one friend, that's the undertaker
War has shattered many a young mans dreams
Made him disabled bitter and mean
Life is much to precious to spend fighting wars these days
War can't give life, it can only take it away

War! Huh Good God y'all
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing
Say it again

War! Whoa, Lord ...
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me?

War! It ain't nothing but a heartbreaker
War! Friend only to the undertaker
Peace Love and Understanding;
tell me, is there no place for them today?
They say we must fight to keep our freedom
But Lord knows there's got to be a better way

War! Huh Good God y'all
What is it good for?
You tell me
Say it, Say it, Say it

War! Huh Good God y'all
What is it good for?
Stand up and shout it.
Nothing!

[Liabmeasez]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
There's rational opposition to war, and then there's "war, what is it good far?" ignorance. OHHHHH... that make you feel better? Maybe you should listen to some music. The song I posted above is very catchy, a number one hit.

[VitaliyMurnov]

Originally posted by GePap
OHHHHH... that make you feel better? Maybe you should listen to some music. The song I posted above is very catchy, a number one hit. I happen to like the song, actually.

[juyrett]

Tattila, Cannon Fodder

[KkJvrG4d]

Certain areas have traditions of men serving in the military, and given that joining is voluntary, there will be pockets more affected by casualties than others.

Judging a war by the number of dead is only one metric to use, and of course, juding only by one set of deaths (like not actually caring about the dead and displaced Iraqis for example) is a very faulty metric.

Iraq was never going to be a bloodbath for the US, given how good battlefield medicine has gotten, and the overwhelming firepower advantage the US has. Anti-insurgency campaigns are generally not that terribly bloody for the bigger powers, but the issue of bloodshed is never really what matters.

Look at the Soviet experience in Afghanistan - over 9 years they lost 16,000 troops, which is less than a third of what we lost in Vietnam for example, and certainly for the army of a dictatorship numbering in the millions should hardly have seemed so huge a cost, but they were not achieving anything, so the deaths were a waste.

Sometimes what people die for matters more than the number of people that die.