[Orefsmisits]

Hmm, local newspaper ran a story on this just today. I blame religion, and the overly patriarcal society.

[viagbloggerz]

She has publicly equated condom use with theft and murder and said that Aids is God's way of punishing immoral behaviour Now if that isn't helpful I don't know what is.

[perpelverw]

Of course. How silly of me.

[Swidemaiskikemu]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Questionable government figures say that 6.4 per cent of Ugandans have HIV/Aids.
And yet we are supposed to trust the higher numbers? You have a very selective interpretation of what it means for figures to be "questionable."

Not everyone is sad about the escalating epidemic. In a roadside timber yard near Kampala's Mulago Hospital, coffin makers report that business has never been better. "Three years ago, I sell 15 coffins a week. Now it is 20 adult coffins and seven children's coffins," says Lawrence Kiwanuka, the jovial boss of an expanding workforce of 25 carpenters. "I think the Aids deaths are really more than the government says." So is he happy more people are dying from Aids? He laughs: "That is a very difficult question." Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Here's the program in Botswana That's a red herring. How long as the program been in place? What percentage of the population had AIDS before the program was put in place? How much funding does the program receive?

Uganda is a case where the balanced program (correlated with a reduction of HIV cases) was replaced with an AO program (correlated with an increase in HIV cases). Botswana is a case where you're throwing around figures without any attempt at drawing a correlation beyond "this is their stated program, these are the results, my oracular knowledge says that AO would have produced better results, praise Jesus."

[tq4F7YKs]

All your source says is that we ought to be skeptical of the numbers representing the number of AIDS infections in Uganda.

Fair enough. My point is that if we are being skeptical, then how do we know to trust the higher figures which seem to be the whole point of the article?

Skepticism in one instance and blind faith in the other seems drastically unwarranted.

That's a red herring. How long as the program been in place? What percentage of the population had AIDS before the program was put in place? How much funding does the program receive? Bill Gates is one of the donors. The Botswana program has ample funding available.

The point I am trying to make is that you are gaging the Uganda program based on the results that we see. Now, why can't we also hold the folks in Botswana accountable for the fact that even though they have pushed condoms there extensively that their rate has not changed appreciably?

I'm not saying, look Botswana's higher then Uganda, but rather, why is it that Botswana's program has shown no change whatsoever, despite the fact that they are doing everything 'right' in promoting education, and condoms, etc.

[Nashhlkq]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Yep. Look at the Botswana program. Not a mention of staying with your partner or abstinence whatsoever. Condoms were seen as a last resort in ABC, and I believe I have posted exactly that in previous threads. Condoms are a resort, not "last.

I found the woman's name, Noereen Kaleeba.

A link to her full interview:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...s/kaleeba.html

And what does this woman, who has done so much against AIDS in her country say about Condoms?

The ABC: Now, speaking as a Ugandan, I know that what has brought Uganda as far as it is today has been A, B [and] C together, not one of them singly. But what I hear now is, "Oh, now it's just A and B" -- abstinence and being faithful. There is some kind of a campaign to be quiet about the condom discussion, which is a disaster. It's a real cocktail for disaster, and I think for a person like me, who has been personally robbed not only of her husband but of many of my siblings, many of my friends, this debate of condom or no condom really makes me angry, because I know for a fact my husband had HIV; I don't have HIV. If you ask me to put it on record what actually protected me from his infection, it was a condom. We were using condoms for birth control.

We didn't know he had HIV … until he was diagnosed. I know for a fact if we hadn't been using condoms, I would have been infected by now. I also know that this divisive debate about whether abstinence works or doesn't work -- yes, abstinence works for some people for some time, but you can't say that abstinence works for everybody all the time. So really, we should stop this debate, I feel.

[Htb48JBf]

I'm not sure your point gepap. Ms. Kaleeba is saying that she was inadvertantly protected through her condom use. I sincerely doubt that she preferred her first line of defense to be a condom.

[adverwork]

From your link:

Botswana: 37.3% pop.

Uganda: 4.1% pop

[expomeHattePe]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
From your link:

Botswana: 37.3% pop.

Uganda: 4.1% pop Very good Ben! You can read!

And now read the damned interviews. You will see that that difference is based on the fact Uganda's government was the FIRST in the world to undertake a comprehensive nation wide strategy to combat AIDS, to inform the population, and to give support for those with AIDS. Uganda is a success story. As Ms. Kabeela, one of the persons very responsible for that success states, the strategy from the start was ABC. NOw thanks to the strategies pushed by the Bush admin, and by people like you, the rate of infection has gone up.

That is simple, hard proof that Uganda's original ABC strategy works, and that your AB strategy is less effective.

Care to manhandle numbers some more?

[GarryPaterson]

She was married to a man "faithfully". So abstinance was a non-issue for her. Beinge faithful would not have saved her from dying from AIDS, like her husband did. It was a condom. True, but that also confirms what I was saying that her first line of defense were not condoms. Plus she acknowledges that she used the condoms for a purpose entirely unrelated to AIDS transmission, ie, birth control.

So please tell me why she ought to be the poster child for why condom use ought to be sought for preventation of AIDS? It seems to me much more obvious that the steps she took were right in line with ABC, in that she first decided to be faithful to her partner rather then rely on condoms to protect her from AIDS.

Abstinance has 100 success because it means no sex. No sex also means no procreation. AIDS stops, so does the human species. Abstinence until marriage is generally the position taken by those favouring abstinence. So please, deal with their arguments, not your own.

Be faithful is a strategy that works by limiting the number of sexual partners you have, thus limitng your risk. But if you are faithfull to a partner with AIDS, well.... True, you are relying upon your own partner to be faithful to you. The trouble with your argument here is that it is entirely possible for them to have sex with each other to have kids without ever having the possibility of getting AIDS.

If both wait until marriage, and then are faithful to each other, they have no chance of getting AIDS at all.

Hence, what Ms. Kabeela, someone with far FAR more experience on AIDS than you Ben, said. Its a truple strategy that works, FULL strategy. YOu can not ignore any section of it. Who said I'm ignoring it? All I'm saying is that it's like wearing three pieces of armour, with the last one being a small little sheet of rubber. Yes, it helps to wear it, but I'd rather rely upon something sturdier overtop.

[marketheal]

Ben, the issue is that currently condoms are being removed from the ABC formula.

This is obviously a bad thing.

JM

[Anakattawl]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
My AB strategy? Where have I said that the condoms are not part of the success in Uganda. From the article
Uganda's evangelicals preach that abstinence is the only way to halt the spread of the virus. Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
So I think I'll take Uganda's approach.

[Biashpainabix]

ben, do you think condoms are a last resort simply because the acronym is in alphabetical order?

[leadmoffer]

Praise the Lord!

[domeffire]

Botswana is a fairly incredible case actually. It's an oddity, and it's far from being par of the course in Africa.

Botswana is probably the African country where the average person is the richest. Rich diamond deposits have been discovered after independence, and the wealth from these deposits benefits pretty much all the Botswanese (except Bushmen).

Nobody really understands why the anti-AIDS programmes are such a failure in Botswana. It's not for lack of money (anti-AIDS ads are everywhere, and the population can understand them). Comparatively to the rest of Africa, it's not for lack of education. It's really a mystery.

OTOH, the Ugandese ABC programme has been one of the best success stories wrt AIDS in Africa. The balance between the three elements really helped, both in order to shape a less promiscuous culture, and in making promiscuous behaviours less risky.
However, promiscuous behaviour hasn't entirely disappeared, far from it (and it ain't going to disappear anytime soon), and the current dogmatism is shattering what has made it a success.
Not only are the promiscuous behaviours going to be more dangerous, but those who had several partners in their lives (which is possible in a non-promiscuous way: polygamous families, widows, divorcees, people who experienced years before when they were young) are at a serious risk and present a risk to their partners.

[TeemFilla]

Well, let's be fair: it's not just condoms. Conservatives are also opposing an HPV vaccine that could save thousands of lives lost to cervical cancer. They're willing to sacrifice white American women as well as the savages running through the jungles with bones through their noses, in the name of all that is decent.

[ambientambien]

Condoms are against family values.