[gueremaisse]

Originally posted by DAVOUT
Judaism recognizes also conversion as a way to become Jew.

Isn't that great. I, who am not Jewish, could convert, and move to Israel and be a citizen. These kids, who's fathers are Jewish and Israeli citizens, can't be, unless they also convert.

Now, if the Russian kids in Israel we know are anything to go by, it's higly likely these kids are also atheists, so you're asking them to live a lie in order to be granted that which should be given them as a birthright.

[Q0KmoR8K]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Technically, they aren't Jews, since Judaism says that only children born of a Jewish woman are Jews. That technicality means they aren't ciitzens in Israel, and thus get to live second class lives. Hmm, seems that everyone not belonging to the master race (jews) get to lead second class lives.

Reminds me of a history lesson in school about "die übermensch"

[Xtatotvk]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
Plus from what I hear conversion isn't as simple a process as in Christian churches. Not to say Christian conversion is like a Vegas wedding, but its a simplier process from what I hear. Like the Christian churches will actually encourage you instead of try to talk you out of it, heh.
yeah. Cause for 1500 years it was illegal for Jews to convert non-Jews, in both Christian and muslim worlds. Folks coming for conversion could well have been informers, trying to get the Jews in trouble. It is in that context that Jewish conversion law developed.

And we are NOT a universalist, proselytizing religion. You DONT have to become a Jew to be in good with the divine. We are a specific people, with specific obligations. Why should we proselytize? OTOH if you DO become a jew, thousands of things that it used to be fine for you to do, become sins. Shouldnt we warn people not to take on these obligations lightly?

Nonetheless, in fact its NOT all that difficult to convert. I know plenty of people who have done so.

[MikeGotTalentz]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Technically, they aren't Jews, since Judaism says that only children born of a Jewish woman are Jews. That technicality means they aren't ciitzens in Israel, and thus get to live second class lives.
No. Plenty of non-Jews are citizens of Israel (and not just the Arab residents) Under the law of return anyone with a single Jewish grandparent, of either gender, can become a citizen. And its also possible to become a citizen through normal immigration, not under the law of return, though there AFAIK there are not many open slots (some Viet Namese refugees became citizens that way, though, and I beleive there are others)

These folks are non-Jews whose parents got in under a technicality, and now theyre showing how little they have in common with Israel.


The problem with the law of return is not that its too narrow, but that its too broad.

Why should a Palestinian born in Amman not have the right to immigrate, when a Russian, who has no knowledge of Jewish religion or culture, and who isnt Jewish under religious law, but who had ONE Jewish Grandfather, have the right to immigrate?

In 1948 the arguement was that such a person would have been a Jew to the Nazis, and so should have a right to live in Israel. Its time to stop letting Nazi racial policy define "who is a Jew"

At a minimum the right of return should be limited to those who are halachically jewish, or who at least have a strong connection to Jewish religion and culture.

More radically, the law of return should only apply to A. Jews with a deep commitment to Jewish culture - language, history, etc or B. Ones who are actually in flight from persecution. If you are living a safe life in the diaspora, and you dont know a word of Hebrew, or care a thing about Jewish culture, do you really have a claim ahead of that Arab from Amman?

[Ndptbudd]

Originally posted by atawa


Palestinians born in what is now Isreal can not return to their land but everybody with jewish blood gets an automatic pss.... can you please explain why these laws are not racist
If you wish to discuss the law of return, the moral basis for a right of Jews to return to the land of Israel, the circumstances under which Palestinians fled in 1948, and the rights they do or dont have, and what makes a law "racist" I suggest another thread. Thats something thats been debated at great length here.

It is only germain to this discussion in an oblique way which I thought was clear from my post. You seem to have changfed your position. You earlier posted in what seemed to be protest against people who had a Jewish great grandfather being denied rights under the law of return, but now you say that ANYONE with Jewish "blood" has rights under the law of return. Which do you think it is? Or did you just join in the general "Israel and Jews are racist" fest you saw going on here?

[Haremporblape]

Thanks for the posts, LoTM.

[first_pr]

Reductio ad absurdem, che. They have to draw the line somewhere.

[TRASIAOREXOLA]

Jewish State....Necessary??

Recall that Israel was formed almost immediately after the Holocaust.

[ClapekDodki]

Er, the argument was more like: in every country the Jews have lived in for the past couple millenia, they've been persecuted and, most recently, been the target of genocide. The only way to ensure their safety is to give them their own country.

[Maribellin]

Human nature.

[leangarance]

Originally posted by laurentius
Whats so complicated?

I dont think the situations weird at all. You neglect the youth, they react. the youth aren't neglected. They are just a bunch of whiney cry babies who need something to rebel against.

[lrtoinbert]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
No one is suggesting taking Israel away. I'm a 100% supporter of Israel's right to exist, certainly (and I'd imagine most people here are as well). But for a people persecuted for millenia, don't you think its a bit ironic/hypocritical/sad that as soon as they get their own state they start with their own persecuting? *sigh*

The entire point of a Jewish state was for it to be, well, Jewish. The idea was, they need their own country because in every other country, they've been persecuted. Obviously the country is going to be formed on ethnic/religious lines.

[hiedeemom]

Originally posted by Seeker
So where is the post holocaust post world war 2 Roma state? Why do the jews especially need a state based on race but not the equally suffering gypsies?

The holocaust should not be used as a justification for racism.
1. If the Roma can do what the Zionists did, and start building a new society, transforming from a people of wondering nomads with a narrow occupational structure to a normal people, and then claim a state, Id be in full sympathy with them. IIUC the Roma originate in India. However it seems they have no desire to return to India, or to establish a Roma state. Thats THEIR choice. Zionism did not emerge ex nihilo in 1945. It was a steady development, in response to A. The real social problems of the Jewish people B. A history of persecution that long antedated the holocaust C. The real attachment of the Jewish people to their homeland - where are the Roma prayers, folklore, etc that tie them to their homeland?

2. The Law of Return does NOT exclude any "race?. Its for the return of members of the Jewish nation. Nation in traditional Jewish culture is something that doesnt quite map to religion or to race. YOu can convert to it, or you can be born to it.

Now the folk wisdom of the people takes a narrower than Jewish law. In the Brother Daniel case, a christian monk of Jewish birth applied under the Law of Return, and was rejected. Under Jewish law he was still a Jew, but the people didnt consider him one.

A Jew whos an atheist IS considered Jewish, both by Jewish law AND by the folk wisdom of the people. The early Zionists were hardly going to exclude atheists, as many of them WERE atheists. Nor were they going to exclude, say, folks who couldnt speak Hebrew, as the mass of Jews in Eastern Europe spoke Yiddish on a daily basis - which DID mark them off as a minority for persecution, but which was not the language of the new land.

Now maybe today we can reformulate the law of return to make a connection to Jewish culture more central. But the Jewish people are not going to exclude their brothers and sisters in times of persecution, on the basis of a cultural-linguistic test, merely to satisfy the high minded principles someone living thousands of miles away who doesnt share the fate of the Jewish people.

[BruceCroucshs]

Originally posted by Seeker
Why should ones ethnicity have anything to do with ones citizenship?

It really seems to be a double standard for Israel, given that they have condemned others in the past...

Ethnically homogneous,

Korean state...bad (NK)
Boer/English State.....bad (SA and Rhodesia)
Russian state.....bad (Belarus and Rus to some extent)
White State....bad (USA 1920s-60s)
Jewish State....Necessary??

Quoth sesame street: one of these things is not like the others, one of these things is not quite the same...
Korean state - good (SK)
Dutch state good - Netherlands
Russian state good - Russia

Nkor is MORE commited to univeralist values than Skor, and look at the two states.

SA and Rhodesia were bad cause they were rules of minorities over a majority, and denied basic political rights to citizens of those states.

[IssuessBratte]

"Nkor is MORE commited to univeralist values than Skor, and look at the two states."

I'm sorry that's a completely ridiculous statement that only someone who has never visited NK would make.

NK is an explicity racist country, through and through, with an active eugenics programme. They believein the superiority and purity of the han race, with laws against race mixing, and they frequently condemn SK for 'dropping ink in the Han river' (expression for allowing dark-skinned foreigners to enter Korea). One of SK greatest 'crimes' in the North's eyes, is race-mixing and immigration. See their reaction on the visit by Pittsburg Steelers player Hines Woods, half-black half korean. He was celebrated in the South, the subject of racist tirades in the North.

The idea that North Korea is 'committed to universalist values' just undermined your credibility drastically in my opinion.

[vNGiDaFX]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

Doesnt follow. Killing and torturing people to keep them off your property is wrong, that doesnt mean you have to share your property.
So if the Nazis had expelled all Jews from their lands and siezed their property instead of mass murdering them, then that'd be ok?

[klubneras]

There's something about that law of return that I don't understand.

All people with a jewish mother are jews and can become citizens of Israel.
All people with a jewish father or grandfather are not jews, but can become citizens of Israel.
All people that are family to citizens of Israel have a right to be in the country, but can neither be citizens nor are considerd jews. These people are:
- Children, natural and adopted of the 2nd category of citizens.
- Married to citizens of both categories.

Do this extend to people BORN in israel? Don't they have a right to citizenship?
Why can't these people be normalised and be offered citizenship as well?