[interbaoui]

If atheists are immune to magic - and magic is just a manifestation of the placebo effect - what the zogging hell is the point in studying it for practical benefits when you can effect an atheist in untold ways by choosing your words carefully?

If minor psychological trickery is the main reason someone studies magic, why not pick up a book on psychology, go on Wiki or learn some linguistics?

[Pheboasmabs]

I agree with the people above. You can close your eyes and believe as hard as you want that it's not real. But it won't help .....

[fuslssdfaa]

Interesting answers. Of course, the concept of "pure atheist" by itself is open to debate. Because, let's face it: the occult is real. Magick is real. In the course of history many wise and powerful people knew of it's existence and used it (Witchcraft wasn't called "The Craft of the Wise" for nothing.) You can't deny it's existence totally, because it just is there.

As for the immunity issue, I agree with BrotherEnoch and serpent.

[KixdricyArrip]

Being an athiest, who hasbeen "cursed" many times because I piss people off for some reason...

I can assure, no matter what words are spoken or lines drawn ect. It has no effect. I have yet to see any proof of magic...even with all that drama of being "cursed".

[Battwenue]

Out of curiosity, would you let yourself be cursed willingly by OF members or have the rest of the forum try and make something tangible manifest for you?

Game if you are. We can both be ragdolls.

[OQmYckYz]

Being an athiest, who hasbeen "cursed" many times because I piss people off for some reason...

I can assure, no matter what words are spoken or lines drawn ect. It has no effect. I have yet to see any proof of magic...even with all that drama of being "cursed".

Out of curiosity, what are you doing on an Occult forum if you don't believe in magick? You must have at least a spark of interest.

As for magick, it is very real. Not many are truly skilled in such arts, and most who pretend to be are either con artists or illusionists, but magick itself is ancient, powerful and above all, real. It is one of our natural powers that few know to tap, and because of that most chose to replace spirituality with mundane technology.

[Biashpainabix]

Out of curiosity, what are you doing on an Occult forum if you don't believe in magick? You must have at least a spark of interest.

As for magick, it is very real. Not many are truly skilled in such arts, and most who pretend to be are either con artists or illusionists, but magick itself is ancient, powerful and above all, real. It is one of our natural powers that few know to tap, and because of that most chose to replace spirituality with mundane technology.

I have studied the occult. For a long time. I saw no evidence for it in my studies.
And anyone who says technology is mundane obviously doesn't know much about it .Very far from it. Crazy complex. I don't see why people can't just look at the sky and go "My, isn't the cosmos lovely tonight, how amazing is this world" and not have to attach outdated mythology to it so its more "interesting" when it's already fascinating to begin with.
I think the human mind is complex and not fully understood by science yet. Thus I believe that we have the ability to tap that and do things like maqnipulate energy. I do not think this sort of thing is magic at all.



Oh, I am game. I have done that before actually, with the same result as usual, nothing. Remote viewing is one of the few that has been succsefully proven to me, and I am of the idea it can be scientifically explained.

[merloermfgj]

As for magick, it is very real. Not many are truly skilled in such arts, and most who pretend to be are either con artists or illusionists, but magick itself is ancient, powerful and above all, real. It is one of our natural powers that few know to tap, and because of that most chose to replace spirituality with mundane technology.

I do agree with this. I have met many of "Con-Artists" and they can be quite annoying and give the rest of us a bad name.
As for Atheist being immune to the effect of magic(k), I think it depends om the person(what I mean is).... I think some people(whether they realize it or not) have a better natural defense against things like magic(k). Kind of like how some of us are better naturally of Magic(k)..(or energy manipulation..or what ever you wish to call it).
As for the term "True Atheist" that(to me) really makes no sense. The word Atheist just mean a "lack of belief in god/gods", just like Theist just mean "a belief in god/gods" and really nether are need for a belief and practice of Magic(k) ^_^

[sirmzereigMix]

As for the term "True Atheist" that(to me) really makes no sense. The word Atheist just mean a "lack of belief in god/gods", just like Theist just mean "a belief in god/gods" and really nether are need for a belief and practice of Magic(k) ^_^

I am a militant athiest I guess then. Lack of beliefe in the super natural all togather. I think it can be explained by science if it is real. I think having "faith" something works just because it's ancient is dangerous and misleading to ones self. One should always look for proof.
I think it would be hard for most athiests to believe in magic. Some, like me, would be more inclined to be open minded of it, and look at it from a scientific perspective.

If any of you DO believe in your powers and are confident in them, why don't you sign up to take the million doller challage. I forgot the mans name. He will give a million dollers to anyone who can prove magic/psychic powers exist...(I am using the general YOU. not pointed at anyone in particulare, just curiouse.)

[adarmaSen]

If any of you DO believe in your powers and are confident in them, why don't you sign up to take the million doller challage. I forgot the mans name. He will give a million dollers to anyone who can prove magic/psychic powers exist...(I am using the general YOU. not pointed at anyone in particulare, just curiouse.)

Because "we" don't need to prove anything to anyone. We know it exists, and we use it (most of us also have an ethical code in using it, be it self-imposed or otherwise).

And no, magick is not just about mind power explainable by science, even though it contributes. But then, I guess atheists don't believe in things like auras, chakras, planes of existence, souls etc.

As for studying, you can study the occult until you turn blue and nothing can happen. You need to feel it. I'm sorry if I seem elitist (it's not my intention), but I guess you need to have some sort of natural aptitude towards it. Talent. Those who don't have it need to work much, much harder, and 99% of the time lose their faith in the occult just because they can't practice/feel it.

I have nothing against science (actually, I do, but I don't want to start an argument ), it's just that I feel it's complexity is unnecessary, most of the time.

[pongeystrhjst]

Because "we" don't need to prove anything to anyone. We know it exists, and we use it (most of us also have an ethical code in using it, be it self-imposed or otherwise).

Wouldn't showing the world HELP your cause? Wouldn't it make more people interested in studying and advancing the community if they had actual proof of its existance?

And no, magick is not just about mind power explainable by science, even though it contributes. But then, I guess atheists don't believe in things like auras, chakras, planes of existence, souls etc. And that is an opinion, not a fact . Who knows, the soul itself could be explained by science one day. Also, I have seen auras since I was child and have been astral projecting my entire life. I am not saying it doesn't exist, I am saying it has scientific explanations if it does exist.


I have nothing against science (actually, I do, but I don't want to start an argument ), it's just that I feel it's complexity is unnecessary, most of the time. ...and magic isn't "complex".....?

Science isn't that complex. Just depends on how you look at it...

[Draftcasino.com]

Wouldn't showing the world HELP your cause? Wouldn't it make more people interested in studying and advancing the community if they had actual proof of its existance? Not quite. It would only stir more violence towards us, verbal or otherwise. Not to mention mass-media...
And anyway, those who have the sort of aptitude I mentioned above would seek information without need of public proof. You just have to feel it is there.

And that is an opinion, not a fact . Depends on how you look at it. I see it as a fact. Shamanism is quite possibly the oldest religion in existence, and their people not only used their own physical mind powers, but also interacted with the spirit worlds, their inhabitants, seeking guidance, help, and experience from them.

Who knows, the soul itself could be explained by science one day. I really hope it won't. So far, almost anything studied by science has become a victim to it's experiment. This planet itself has been a victim to all forms of science time and again. I really wish the soul is not sorted to the same fate.

Also, I have seen auras since I was child and have been astral projecting my entire life. I am not saying it doesn't exist, I am saying it has scientific explanations if it does exist. And that's why I don't generalize when it comes to atheists. By "pure" atheist, I meant the kind of person who only believes what the material eyes see.

...and magic isn't "complex".....?
Think about this.
Science isn't that complex. Just depends on how you look at it... I see it like this: science tries to achieve the complex through another complex. A more complicated, empricial route.

Magick (and all it's sub-sections) try to achieve the complex through the beauty and simplicity the human body and soul have been given since creation (or evolution, or however you consider the humans appeared here.)

Yes, science can do a lot of things, and most claim it's wonderful and enhances our lives greatly. I wholehearlty disagree. The benefits are great, yes, but to what cost? How many more can this planet take? It has suffered and suffered time and time again because of ignorant scientists who tinkered with it. We face ecological disaster and an eventual Earth exctinction just because of our hunger for knowledge. And I'm not saying knowledge is bad, just the route science takes is disastrous on the long-run.

Let's consider an important achievment, like space travel, reached by both methods. With science you need to do a huge ammount of modern research and design to build a suitable vessel, start space programs to train future-astronauts in it's operation, provide for proper equipment and (again) train them to use it, all investing a huge ammount of money, time, and effort. But to what end? It has a great chance something will go wrong and everything will fail, and even if it doesn't, you can only go so far into this physical world without proper understanding. It is a very empirical way of doing things. All ending by consuming a huge ammount of this planet's resources.

Now, consider a person (not even a modern person, because I'm sure ancient people could do it as well for countless centuries) astral-projecting. Traveling with their very astral body through great distances, indepent from technology or any artificial enhancers. Imagine the places (s)he could visit. The experiences they would gather. The knowledge they could learn and impart throughout the planes. The wonders they could behold. With no harm done to anyone or anything. All done harmoniously with the natural order. And you don't even need to be a true theist to do it, just a spiritual person. The possibilities are endless.

Once/If we will transcend our condition, will we need technology? Will we need science anymore? Think about this.

[Ruilnasr]

Once/If we will transcend our condition, will we need technology? Will we need science anymore? Think about this. Empirical methods are used to find the most effective magickal processes for each person. We need the scientific method.

[minowz]

In this world, nothing can be called a "fact".
And if you belive in manipulating energy is like you say that you belive in magick.
The magick is the art of energy manipulation. Is the most "real" and eficient science for energy manipulation, beacouse the today science didn't manage to do it. The form of energy manipulated by magick is one of the most powerfull in the univers, but still unknown to the scientific world.
Every person has it, but it takes time and patience to unlock it. You are what you want to be. You can shape your world in every way you want.Autosugestion, energy chaneling, and many other rituals.
A magician does not need a comunity, or to be accepted. It's useless.
When you will find your life purpose, the real spiritual essence you will be free for ever.
If you don't belive in who you realy are, you only make your situation worst. Your soul will be reincarnated and depend on the level that you approached your real spirit, your next life will be better or worst.
This is my opinion.

[Nfvzjvcl]

In this world, nothing can be called a "fact".
And if you belive in manipulating energy is like you say that you belive in magick.
The magick is the art of energy manipulation. Is the most "real" and eficient science for energy manipulation, beacouse the today science didn't manage to do it. The form of energy manipulated by magick is one of the most powerfull in the univers, but still unknown to the scientific world.
Every person has it, but it takes time and patience to unlock it. You are what you want to be. You can shape your world in every way you want.Autosugestion, energy chaneling, and many other rituals.
A magician does not need a comunity, or to be accepted. It's useless.
When you will find your life purpose, the real spiritual essence you will be free for ever.
If you don't belive in who you realy are, you only make your situation worst. Your soul will be reincarnated and depend on the level that you approached your real spirit, your next life will be better or worst.
This is my opinion.

100% Agreed.

[N9NACzws]

In this world, nothing can be called a "fact".
And if you belive in manipulating energy is like you say that you belive in magick.
The magick is the art of energy manipulation. Is the most "real" and eficient science for energy manipulation, beacouse the today science didn't manage to do it. The form of energy manipulated by magick is one of the most powerfull in the univers, but still unknown to the scientific world.
Every person has it, but it takes time and patience to unlock it. You are what you want to be. You can shape your world in every way you want.Autosugestion, energy chaneling, and many other rituals.
A magician does not need a comunity, or to be accepted. It's useless.
When you will find your life purpose, the real spiritual essence you will be free for ever.
If you don't belive in who you realy are, you only make your situation worst. Your soul will be reincarnated and depend on the level that you approached your real spirit, your next life will be better or worst.
This is my opinion.

In this world nothing can be called 'fact' Is that statement itself a fact?

You can shape your world in every way you want. Is that a fact?

When you will find your life purpose, the real spiritual essence you will be free for ever. You can see where this is going.

Isn't it contradictory to disbelieve in facts then treat your own opinions with any amount of respect? How are you sure of your own opinions? Is it even a fact that you are sure of your own opinions?

Rejecting the notion of certainty leads to a lot of paradoxes.

Yes, science can do a lot of things, and most claim it's wonderful and enhances our lives greatly. I wholehearlty disagree. The benefits are great, yes, but to what cost? How many more can this planet take? It has suffered and suffered time and time again because of ignorant scientists who tinkered with it. We face ecological disaster and an eventual Earth exctinction just because of our hunger for knowledge. And I'm not saying knowledge is bad, just the route science takes is disastrous on the long-run. BBC NEWS | Europe | Wildlife defies Chernobyl radiation

Seems it does just fine after perhaps the worst probable thing science could throw at the world repeatedly.

[Yswxomvy]

Some spellcraft, yes is psychological (Oh no! I said it! A'yup), and will effect those who believe, sometimes even those who do not (When someone throws dirt from a graveyard in front of your doorstep right before you step over it, it has a bit of a "what the fuck" factor). HOWEVER, other spellwork will and can effect even the "unbelieving" because it is natural law. I believe the movie The Skeleton Key is a good focus on the psychological effects of magick, if dreadfully boring to sift through. I know that if I cast a spell on someone who does not believe in magick and DOES know I cast it on them, their own disbelief can become their own magick shield (One of the more repeated practices in defensive magick is stating/believing that no harm can come to you). But, if they do not know, they will most likely be effected.
Then again, I've had at least one instance when someone who did not believe me, was effected. They aren't "immune" because it is a real thing that can and does create change, but if they are aware and disbelieving, they can be protected (ironically, their own disbelief in magick acts as magick, but I made that point already, didn't I?).
So basically, yes, it can, no, it can't and it just might.

I remember a tidbit of information once passed to me that Druids and ancient Celtic practitioners used to astral project before a battle to see the enemies ranks and support, etc.
*Just because (supposing) they didn't believe Mr. Druid could astral project, didn't stop him from seeing their cavalry trying to flank his men. Hahahaha.

*The statement above is hypothetical.

Moo.

[Abarricoss]

Wait, so atheists are natural adepts at protective magic?

[E4qC1qQ5]

lol, no, I wouldn't go in so far as to say that. Think of it like having thick skin. You can still get cut, but not as deep, if noticeable at all.


As for Science and Magick...
They have a LOT in common, both are "complex" to outsiders, both require a certain amount of imagination, proof (at least, with me. I try to directly link my magick to the effects, while staying impartial.)
I'm a full believe in Magick, and in science, I use them both together with dramatically excellent results. They can be used harmoniously to explain one another, for instance, Quantum Physics (while sometimes regaurded as "pseudo-science") is a beautifully inventive, and interesting perspective on the world that goes well with Magick.
As do other sciences. For a time in my life I actually wanted to BE a scientist.
At the time I cast my first circle, called the elements, FELT the rush, the surge, the electricity, I knew magick was real. It was like meeting that person who you felt you knew your entire life. A, soul mate of sorts.
Astral projection is simply the "projection" of your (mental) consciousness in a vehicle/form (soul) outside of your physical body, on to this worlds twin (Ethereal plane) or on to other worlds (frequencies, if you like QP), remote viewing works the same way, except it is your mental consciousness only, I've used it to read minds, to see other people, anything. We're waves overlapping and interacting with waves, so is magick.

Then again that is my opinion.
I love and respect both science and magick, I believe science works because I see it's results, the same with magick. They are beautiful. It's alchemy in both its forms.

[Xiciljed]

lol, no, I wouldn't go in so far as to say that. Think of it like having thick skin. You can still get cut, but not as deep, if noticeable at all. Rationality becomes a simple ritual for protection! The more adept at naturalistic explanations you are, the more potent your abjurative skills will be, surely?

Quantum Physics (while sometimes regaurded as "pseudo-science") As far as I know, the predictions made by QM (with peer consensus) have been totally accurate. It's not pseudo science at all, it's perhaps the most tried and tested physical theory ever conceived.