[pesty4077]

I was messaging with a woman on another board that is having trouble finding a church that is right for their family. Of course I recommended the EO and several forums for finding out about the EO. Well, she asked about the connection of the EO and the RO. Here are her "experiences" with Russian Orthodox and some hearsay passed on by her FIL (baptist missionary that was "in charge of setting up seminaries to train pastors because there is so little in the way of pastoral training avalible to them there."

Hearsay about Russia:

1. the RO church in Russia is simply Putin's tool and not a whole lot more.

2. Most Russians who go to church there, go because it is the socially acceptable thing to do

3. they have very little knowledge of the Bible.

4. if you went to Russia you would not recognize the faith as the same one you practice.

5. It is very oppressive, a social things mostly, not spiritual

Her experience:

6. (her) area has a lot of recent immigrants and the Russian Orthodox church here is rather oppressive because...

7. Very specific styles of dress for the women (goodness, I know loads of baptist churches that are this way! Grew up in one of them!)

8. lots of rituals (too bad she doesn't understand the meaning behind those "rituals"...to baptists, "ritual" is almost a bad word, which shows a misunderstanding of what they are)

9. and reading scripture is severely discouraged.

10. apparently the group she is familiar with kicks out kids that start "reading the bible, accepting Christ, and getting baptised" (there is so much in this last one, that I'm having trouble putting into words...she obviously does not understand that they are ALREADY baptised...there is nothing wrong with accepting Christ, but it's not a magical prayer and that's the end of it, and I don't know of anyone in the EO that is forbidden from reading the bible...this seems a great stretch of the truth to me.)


Anyone want to have at these?

[vicgirl]

Hearsay about Russia:

As one who spends a lot of time in Russia and has a Russian wife, I can comment as follows:

1. the RO church in Russia is simply Putin's tool and not a whole lot more. Not true at all. Many high-up clergy in the Russian Orthodox Church and ordinary Russian churchgoers have a healthy disregard for Putin and the powers that be in the state

2. Most Russians who go to church there, go because it is the socially acceptable thing to do Not true at all. I have to been to many churches and monasteries in Moscow, St Petersburg all over European Russia. The faithful are genuinely devout.

3. they have very little knowledge of the Bible. This has a very Protestant ring about it. How much knowledge of the Bible does the average Orthodox Christian in Greece, Cyprus, Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania, have? How much knowledge of the Bible does the average Anglican have? Some Russians know the Bible well - others, I suppose, less so.

4. if you went to Russia you would not recognize the faith as the same one you practice. I have practised my Orthodox faith in England, Greece and Cyprus, as well as in Russia. There is no difference.

5. It is very oppressive, a social things mostly, not spiritual Certainly, it has an authoritarian feel to it compared to Greece, but that is, I think, down to national temperament. It is not at all social - I rather wish it were to a degree. It has far more spirituality than anyone can handle.

Her experience: I cannot comment.

Yes, there are some things about Russia and its Church that I find not easy to live with. But Westerners have no business judging Russian Christians who have given the Orthodox Church more martyrs in the last 100 years than in all the rest of Christian history put together.

[sabbixsweraco]

1. There are some who might say that Putin is the RO's tool and not much more. So what? It is as "more" or "less" as one wants it to be I suppose. American Protestantism is merely the tool of the "religious right" (whatever that means) depending on who you ask.

2. "Most" is one of those very suspicious words. Most people overuse it. (insert "ironic" smilely face here)

3. I know lots of Protestants who have very little knowledge of the Bible, I used to be one. "Most" (argh! that word again!) of the Orthodox I know have an excellent working knowledge of the contents of Holy Scripture. I say, you say, she says, who cares?

4. If I were still a Protestant that would be very true, not sure how that makes it a good or bad thing however, seems rather irrelevant.

5. To whom? Atheists would say this about any church anywhere, seems like a very generically meaningless statement.

6. Define "oppressive". Many Anglicans would call Orthodoxy oppresive because you are not allowed to believe whatever you want and still be a member.

7. I wish we were more specific in my parish about dress standards, for men AND women!

8. If they are honest about it, even Baptists have to admit they too have "rituals" whether they call them that or not.

9. I would have to hear specifics about "severely discouraged". Individual interpretation of Holy Scripture is not encouraged, certainly, and perhaps in some places individual reading of Scripture is not actively encouraged either, but that is not the same as "severely discouraged." But really, if you pay attention at all in Church, you can't avoid Scripture!

10. We just do things in a different order: getting baptized, having communion with and in Christ (which is so much more than merely "accepting" Christ, don't you think?) and we are surrounded by Holy Scripture in the prayers and hymnody, we are actively engaged in participating in Holy Scripture, not simply reading it!

At any rate, we are not a McReligion. I didn't choose to become Orthodox because it was "right for me and my family", I chose it because it was Truth. There are times when I would rather be just about anything except Orthodox, because it is often not easy nor does it fit into "how I want things to be."

America is a place of designer religion. Have it your way, any way except perhaps God's way. It is not about what feels right, it is about what IS TRUE.

Or so it seems to this bear of little brain. Oh bother!

Herman the Pooh

[DJkillos]

Here are her "experiences" with Russian Orthodox and some hearsay passed on by her FIL (baptist missionary that was "in charge of setting up seminaries to train pastors because there is so little in the way of pastoral training avalible to them there."

Certainly there is very little in the way of *baptist* pastoral training - probably not much at all. OTOH, there are graduate level seminaries in Russia which are overflowing and new ones are being founded quite rapidly since the Church was freed.

Hearsay about Russia:

1. the RO church in Russia is simply Putin's tool and not a whole lot more. Well, gee, that doesn't really concide with the news now does it - the ROC, especially in the past couple of years been quite vocal in opposing some of the policies of the government that contradict the tenets of the faith. Prime Minister Putin and President Medvedev are both true believers and practicing Orthodox Christians (with a high profile of visibility) so what's wrong with having the two most influential leaders of one of the largest most powerful nations in the world being practicing Christians?

2. Most Russians who go to church there, go because it is the socially acceptable thing to do And most Americans who go to Church do so because it is the socially acceptable thing to do (not to mention the business/publicity benefits). At least in Russia people actually go to Church.

3. they have very little knowledge of the Bible. Gotta define "knowledge of the Bible" and also how you quantify how much a person has. No, most Orthodox can't do "chapter and verse" prooftexting, but any Orthodox Christian who has paid even the least attention in Church can probably quote or recognize a huge amount of scripture (since the services are composed of mostly scripture). My Russian parishioners often surprise me with questions about scripture that have a profound depth to them.

4. if you went to Russia you would not recognize the faith as the same one you practice. Well, that could be true - if you went to Russia and attended Orthodox services there, you would not recognize them as the same baptist services from the US. OTOH, if you are Orthodox and you go to Russia, you will be right at home and even without understanding the language be able to worship just as you do in an Russian Orthodox parish here in the US.

5. It is very oppressive, a social things mostly, not spiritual That's a purely subjective observation - one that depends entirely on the mood of the person experiencing it.

Her experience:

6. (her) area has a lot of recent immigrants and the Russian Orthodox church here is rather oppressive because...

7. Very specific styles of dress for the women (goodness, I know loads of baptist churches that are this way! Grew up in one of them!) People dress in the clothes they have. Some new Russians are very very elegant and dress as if they were going out on the town to come to liturgy (or for that matter to make dinner). Other new Russians have absolutely no fashion sense and dress in some of the most atrocious outfits (pink cowboy boots with orange sweat pants and a polka dot top). Some of the old "baba"s tend to dress in very "frumpy" and dark clothing - because that is appropriate for widows (and given the high mortality rate in Russia, there are a lot of widows in the older generation).

8. lots of rituals (too bad she doesn't understand the meaning behind those "rituals"...to baptists, "ritual" is almost a bad word, which shows a misunderstanding of what they are) Can't argue with that - yes, we do have a lot of rituals. But then so do most baptists but they don't define them as "rituals" its just "the way that we've always done it."

9. and reading scripture is severely discouraged. How does she know this? Did someone come into her home and confiscate all her Bibles? Or perhaps no one carried a Bible in Church (that's a Baptist "ritual" after all - not an Orthodox one) because we come to Church to pray and to worship God, not to study our textbooks and follow along as the "professor" (errrr "Pastor") gives a lecture (errrrr sermon). This is especially amusing as there is a rather lively discussion on another list about the multitude of ways that we as priests use to encourage our people to read the scripture more frequently.

10. apparently the group she is familiar with kicks out kids that start "reading the bible, accepting Christ, and getting baptised" (there is so much in this last one, that I'm having trouble putting into words...she obviously does not understand that they are ALREADY baptised...there is nothing wrong with accepting Christ, but it's not a magical prayer and that's the end of it, and I don't know of anyone in the EO that is forbidden from reading the bible...this seems a great stretch of the truth to me.) I'm guessing that the kids aren't "kicked out" so much as they leave because they feel they are misunderstood (I'm also guessing that these "kids" are in the midst of adolescent rebellion and culture shock/identity crisis having come from Russia to the US at a critical time in their lives). To assume that this is just a religious issue is such a profound oversimplification of the complex cross cultural and developmental issues that come up, especially in kids who are brought to the US between the ages of 12 - 18. If the "churches" that "evangelize" these kids would focus on strengthening the faith that they have rather than teaching them a new one and uprooting every family and social value that they have, there might be less of an issue.

Your friend needs to stop being an "ugly American" (demanding the the "whole world should be just like us" - a prize to whoever identifies that pop song lyric) and at least try to understand a different culture and to embrace (rather than remake) people of a different background.

Fr David Moser

[exiceJetLip]

Well my understanding is that there are 2 ways to do truck loads of sins:
One way is to do magic like in white magic and black magic.
The second way is to drag children of God from Orthodox Church where they have food for eternal life and baptism for entrance to Heaven into organizations established by men that don't give food for eternal life.

Even in Romania there is inter family strife when some people deserted Church of God for organizations established by men, and not because the read Bible, that is funny to think so, but because by deserting Church established by Jesus they depart from food for eternal life, Holy Communion:
John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

What would you do if somebody close to you get separated from food for eternal life?

[Aizutox]

So, I would suggest to explain to that lady that Jesus came into the World to bring beside christian teachings of doing good, food for eternal life and baptism for entrance to Heaven, and that there can be problems for people not tacking one or another:
John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

The understanding of Early Church and of Apostles was that Food for eternal life is Holy Eucharist done by an ordained priest. See Holy Liturgy of Apostle Mark. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf07.xii.iii.html

In 1500 appeared Organizations established by men naming them self Churches that renounced food for eternal life replacing it with a simple meal or with Words. So, these organizations need to look into this very important verse:
John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

[doksSirmAdods]

Here is an interesting re-read.

[ggandibazz]

I have many dear to me that are in such a state, and yet I do not disown them nor look down on them. I also have friends that are Christians, but not Orthodox, I used to be one myself. As I've heard from other Orthodox, we know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not...simply because these people are not Orthodox, does not mean they are not Christian.

[Infiseeenvelp]

Certainly there is very little in the way of *baptist* pastoral training - probably not much at all. OTOH, there are graduate level seminaries in Russia which are overflowing and new ones are being founded quite rapidly since the Church was freed.



Well, gee, that doesn't really concide with the news now does it - the ROC, especially in the past couple of years been quite vocal in opposing some of the policies of the government that contradict the tenets of the faith. Prime Minister Putin and President Medvedev are both true believers and practicing Orthodox Christians (with a high profile of visibility) so what's wrong with having the two most influential leaders of one of the largest most powerful nations in the world being practicing Christians?



And most Americans who go to Church do so because it is the socially acceptable thing to do (not to mention the business/publicity benefits). At least in Russia people actually go to Church.



Gotta define "knowledge of the Bible" and also how you quantify how much a person has. No, most Orthodox can't do "chapter and verse" prooftexting, but any Orthodox Christian who has paid even the least attention in Church can probably quote or recognize a huge amount of scripture (since the services are composed of mostly scripture). My Russian parishioners often surprise me with questions about scripture that have a profound depth to them.



Well, that could be true - if you went to Russia and attended Orthodox services there, you would not recognize them as the same baptist services from the US. OTOH, if you are Orthodox and you go to Russia, you will be right at home and even without understanding the language be able to worship just as you do in an Russian Orthodox parish here in the US.



That's a purely subjective observation - one that depends entirely on the mood of the person experiencing it.



People dress in the clothes they have. Some new Russians are very very elegant and dress as if they were going out on the town to come to liturgy (or for that matter to make dinner). Other new Russians have absolutely no fashion sense and dress in some of the most atrocious outfits (pink cowboy boots with orange sweat pants and a polka dot top). Some of the old "baba"s tend to dress in very "frumpy" and dark clothing - because that is appropriate for widows (and given the high mortality rate in Russia, there are a lot of widows in the older generation).



Can't argue with that - yes, we do have a lot of rituals. But then so do most baptists but they don't define them as "rituals" its just "the way that we've always done it."



How does she know this? Did someone come into her home and confiscate all her Bibles? Or perhaps no one carried a Bible in Church (that's a Baptist "ritual" after all - not an Orthodox one) because we come to Church to pray and to worship God, not to study our textbooks and follow along as the "professor" (errrr "Pastor") gives a lecture (errrrr sermon). This is especially amusing as there is a rather lively discussion on another list about the multitude of ways that we as priests use to encourage our people to read the scripture more frequently.



I'm guessing that the kids aren't "kicked out" so much as they leave because they feel they are misunderstood (I'm also guessing that these "kids" are in the midst of adolescent rebellion and culture shock/identity crisis having come from Russia to the US at a critical time in their lives). To assume that this is just a religious issue is such a profound oversimplification of the complex cross cultural and developmental issues that come up, especially in kids who are brought to the US between the ages of 12 - 18. If the "churches" that "evangelize" these kids would focus on strengthening the faith that they have rather than teaching them a new one and uprooting every family and social value that they have, there might be less of an issue.

Your friend needs to stop being an "ugly American" (demanding the the "whole world should be just like us" - a prize to whoever identifies that pop song lyric) and at least try to understand a different culture and to embrace (rather than remake) people of a different background.

Fr David Moser

I have wondered this also. Having been a TCK, I do understand that there is cultural issues at play with immigrants. And at the same time, I did wonder at her listing a person of 16yrs as a credible source. 16yr olds many times have a warped sense of entitlement and reality and will play people against each other. Also, the question back to her would be, how would she react if her child decided that they wanted to become Catholic? Would she have supported that?

On the clothing issue, I'm guessing that they are imposing their own standards of modesty on their own children...how dare they!

She also meant that I would not recognise Orthodoxy there being the same as Orthodoxy practiced in America (of course, this is going off of her FIL's hearsay).



#1 is the one that I really was unable to dispute in words as Putin is EO, but I know that Protestants would have a difficult time viewing him as a Christian. I also don't know what the political issues in Russia are nor what the RO has supported or spoken against.

[GutleNus]

Just a couple of additional notes

I have wondered this also. Having been a TCK, I do understand that there is cultural issues at play with immigrants.

I don't know what a TCK is, but I can tell you from experience that kids who are immigrants from Russia (and I have a few in my parish), especially kids who come here as early/mid adolescents have an extremely difficult time adapting. In my experience they invariably end up in with the "wrong" crowd at school and elsewhere. The ONLY thing that has ever helped any of these kids get "back on track" (and I have a couple of glowing "success stories" in my parish) has been the Orthodox Church. Not even the prots can do what the Orthodox Church does for these kids because the Protestant culture is simply an extension of the North American culture that is at the root of their alienation issues.

She also meant that I would not recognise Orthodoxy there being the same as Orthodoxy practiced in America (of course, this is going off of her FIL's hearsay). I really have to question your friend's basic awareness of Orthodoxy - either here or there. As have many others, I lived through the reconciliation between the ROC here and the ROC in Russia. There were endless trips back and forth and discussions and meetings and trips and tours. There were a lot of differences (even the spoken Russian of the emigres was different than that of non-emigres) but one thing remained the same - one thing we had fully and completely in common and that was the Church. The movement between the two is seamless, the Church is the same here and there. There are, to be sure, some differences - but those differences are for the most part regional or social.

#1 is the one that I really was unable to dispute in words as Putin is EO, but I know that Protestants would have a difficult time viewing him as a Christian. I also don't know what the political issues in Russia are nor what the RO has supported or spoken against. My guess is that your friend is depending on Western "experts" on Russia and on Western news sources. I don't follow international events a lot - but I gotta say even I was shocked at how the West has completely missed and misinterpreted the Russian policies and actions. Try reading and listening to Russian news sources - there are plenty on the internet in English. Yes, in many cases the Church supports the government and the government supports the Church - but that's just because they are on the same page. When they depart from the same page, then the Church is certainly not hindered from speaking out (and she does). I seem to recall that there was something about the conflict in Georgia that the Church criticized the government over. Look at the English language website of the MP or the English language websites of the Russian news agencies.

Fr David

[GogaMegaPis]

My guess is that your friend is depending on Western "experts" on Russia and on Western news sources. I don't follow international events a lot - but I gotta say even I was shocked at how the West has completely missed and misinterpreted the Russian policies and actions. Try reading and listening to Russian news sources - there are plenty on the internet in English. Yes, in many cases the Church supports the government and the government supports the Church - but that's just because they are on the same page. When they depart from the same page, then the Church is certainly not hindered from speaking out (and she does). I seem to recall that there was something about the conflict in Georgia that the Church criticized the government over. Look at the English language website of the MP or the English language websites of the Russian news agencies.Fr David

This is absolutely right. The western media, especially I can say in England (and I suppose in America), are rabidly anti-Russian and anti-Orthodox. Whilst Russians are disillusioned with Putin - nobody thinks Medvedev is in charge - no one doubts the genuineness of his faith, nor that of President Medvedev's wife who is known to be very devout indeed. But how many western Christian leaders evidence their faith in their policies? The west always applies double standards in respect of Russia.

[geraint.faughn]

I don't know what a TCK is, but I can tell you from experience that kids who are immigrants from Russia (and I have a few in my parish), especially kids who come here as early/mid adolescents have an extremely difficult time adapting. In my experience they invariably end up in with the "wrong" crowd at school and elsewhere. The ONLY thing that has ever helped any of these kids get "back on track" (and I have a couple of glowing "success stories" in my parish) has been the Orthodox Church. Not even the prots can do what the Orthodox Church does for these kids because the Protestant culture is simply an extension of the North American culture that is at the root of their alienation issues.

Fr David

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_culture_kid aka TCK

This paragraph of yours is very familiar to me. Church was the ONLY stable thing in my life. There was always a church (in my case, an IFB church with a bus ministry) wherever we were stationed. Culture shock and adaptation, especially American, oh yeah! I have so been there. Most TCK have a more difficult time with the culture shock when returning stateside (to the States) than they do when leaving to go live in a foreign culture.