[CHEAPCIALISFORYOU]

Hi all, I apologise as this is similar to Terri's thread below, but reading that I got a bit confused with all the different ways people have of fasting and was finding it hard to work out how people might think it best to approach my situation. My new partner is Russian Orthodox (and Russian), and I am High Church Anglican. He fasts from meat, dairy and alcohol on Fridays and during Lent, and he fasts from fish on Wednesday and Friday of Lent, if that maybe gives a sense of context. However, my difficulty is that my partner believes that sex is only appropriate within marriage, and sexual contact of any kind is not allowed during fasting. While I respect this, I don't agree with his theology (and I find it highly frustrating!). I'd like to know how common his views are and how this should be approached within a mixed relationship – and what do people think about things like kisses during fasting?

[Tij84ye]

However, my difficulty is that my partner believes that sex is only appropriate within marriage, and sexual contact of any kind is not allowed during fasting.

Yes, sexual relations are only appropriate within marriage and yes, it is usual to refrain from sexual relations during the Great Fast.

Fr David Moser

[QEoMi752]

However, my difficulty is that my partner believes that sex is only appropriate within marriage, and sexual contact of any kind is not allowed during fasting. While I respect this, I don't agree with his theology (and I find it highly frustrating!). My dear, you are a very fortunate woman to have a man with this level of integrity and respect towards himself, towards women, and towards God. How nice to know that you are loved, valued and respected for *you* and not for anything else!

If only more men and women realized that God created sex for marriage...and that in the context it was created there would be no worries and stress about unwanted pregnancies, there would be no diseases, no possible infertility, no emotional insecurity and broken hearts, etc....

Be well,
Alice

[jojocomok]

My dear, you are a very fortunate woman to have a man with this level of integrity and respect towards himself, towards women, and towards God. How nice to know that you are loved, valued and respected for *you* and not for anything else!

If only more men and women realized that God created sex for marriage...and that in the context it was created there would be no worries and stress about unwanted pregnancies, there would be no diseases, no possible infertility, no emotional insecurity and broken hearts, etc....

Be well,
Alice

My prayer to God is that I can meet a lovely man who is orthodox that also, like me, wishes to strive towards such fasting and abstinence at the appointed times by the Church. It is very hard to meet such people - rare and a blessing. She is a very lucky girl although because she is coming from an Anglican background can not understand why we say that.

Dear L, you truly do have a treasure on your hands even if you can not understand why ... God Bless you for showing you so much love and giving you a man who is one of his ... God is reaching out to you (long term) .... I pray one day you can see that!

[Cengaeas]

Thanks Father Moser for reiterating, and thanks Alice – I do feel very lucky, especially since I've never had a partner I could pray with or talk to about religious issues (it's great!). I'm not sure how his view proves that I'm 'loved, valued and respected for *you* and not for anything else' though – how so? My understanding is that these things are an important part of me, not an 'anything else' at all. It can feel as if part of me is being rejected. If these things are such an important part of marriage, why are they irrelevant at this stage? This is something that has been consistently confusing me.

I was also wondering if anyone has thoughts on how to cope with a mixed relationship? Does anyone have a similar (or perhaps reverse) situation?

Thanks,

Lucy.

[Quvwcxqx]

I was also wondering if anyone has thoughts on how to cope with a mixed relationship? Does anyone have a similar (or perhaps reverse) situation?

Thanks,

Lucy.

Dear Lucy,

Welcome.

Thank you for starting this thread about a matter that is very important to you personally. Orthodoxy often shows its worst face online but you have come to the right place. With very little in the way of exception, I have always found the people here to be very respectful and sensitive to people's situations.

My only experience of a non-Orthodox partner was when I was a catechumen, and that came to an end before either the relationship or my journey into Orthodoxy had reached the point where the differences between us caused a clash. There are others here who are much better placed than I to comment on some of the difficulties that can arise and how they overcome them together in their own lives.

As somebody who used to be a liberal Anglo-Catholic, I have some understanding of how some elements of Orthodoxy can be unsettling, confusing, or perhaps feel a little restructive to somebody from that background. Im afraid that anything that I would say would be from the perspective of somebody who had made the conscious choice to embrace Orthodoxy as his own so consciously sought to obey and explore. Perhaps those with experience of mixed relationships can share a little about how they tackel the differences that are peripheral and those where they cannot compromise. I imagine that sort of concession to one another to be a very edifying thing indeed.

I hope all goes well.

In Christ,
Reader Michael (who would only gently point out that the usual form of address for Orthodox Christians is the Christian name. We wouldn't usually addres a priest as "Father Surname". Come to think about it, we never did that in my Anglcian days either. I often encountered it among North American Anglicans, though. But there I go, waffling along ).

[MAKEMONEY]

I'm not sure how his view proves that I'm 'loved, valued and respected for *you* and not for anything else' though – how so? My understanding is that these things are an important part of me, not an 'anything else' at all. It can feel as if part of me is being rejected. If these things are such an important part of marriage, why are they irrelevant at this stage? This is something that has been consistently confusing me. Dearest Lucy,

OOF...Although I am older than you, I have a daughter who is a young adult and was once a young woman dating myself....

I know that it is going to sound 'old fashioned' (I never thought that the way we thought in the 1970's would now be considered 'old fashioned'), but you must believe me when I tell you that today's sexual culture has influenced you to think this way and to feel this way...It has so imposed itself on us that we are told that even the elderly must have sex to be 'normal' and healthy...It has imposed itself on women to behave in the same way that some men always did...to have sex without commitment and/or emotional attachement, and it is this 'mentality' which has caused such secret heartbreak (because the imposing powers of the media never speak of these painful consequences) --teens having abortions, young women infertile due to unbeknownst STD's from their permissive premarital days, etc....

In my days of dating, we were ecstatic if a young man *respected* us to not want to have sex with us. We did not feel rejected, because let's be honest, the man will not be dating you if he is not attracted to you in that way... but It meant that they were getting to know us with their hearts, their souls and their minds, rather than with just one thing in mind...in my 'old fashioned days', a man who did not try to have sex with you meant that he 'respected' you as a human being rather than a 'sex object'...

I don't know what else to say. Hopefully, our priests and deacons can help out with 'respect' from a man's point of view.

Be well,
Alice

P.S. You ask why sex is relevant only for marriage. This is your answer...the bond of being one flesh is for marriage because it is sacred and mystical...(how sacred and mystical would it be if we were to have that bond with every member of the opposite sex we dated and or had a relationship with?)

"Haven't you read," he replied,
"that at the beginning the Creator
'made them male and female,' and said,
'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother
and be united to his wife,
and the two will become one flesh'?
So they are no longer two, but one.
Therefore what God has joined together,
let man not separate."

Matthew 19:4-6

[LorencoLoricelli]

Reader Michael, thanks so much (and for the gentle tip!). What you said made me feel so much better. I don't find most aspects of the religion unsettling by the way, rather the reverse, and particularly the idea of weekly fasting. That's why I'm struggling so much with the few elements that do strike me as strange and/or confusing. But I am eager to learn...

[SDorothy28]

Hi all, I apologise as this is similar to Terri's thread below, but reading that I got a bit confused with all the different ways people have of fasting and was finding it hard to work out how people might think it best to approach my situation. My new partner is Russian Orthodox (and Russian), and I am High Church Anglican. He fasts from meat, dairy and alcohol on Fridays and during Lent, and he fasts from fish on Wednesday and Friday of Lent, if that maybe gives a sense of context. However, my difficulty is that my partner believes that sex is only appropriate within marriage, and sexual contact of any kind is not allowed during fasting. While I respect this, I don't agree with his theology (and I find it highly frustrating!). I'd like to know how common his views are and how this should be approached within a mixed relationship – and what do people think about things like kisses during fasting?

Others have replied very well.

We should add though that for an Orthodox priest it would be the required norm to not allow someone to commune who was in an ongoing physical relationship outside of marriage.

Also since most of Orthodox faithful already know this it could well be that this also is an influence on your friend.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[AllAdobeOEMSoftDownload]

Others have replied very well.

We should add though that for an Orthodox priest it would be the required norm to not allow someone to commune who was in an ongoing physical relationship outside of marriage.

Also since most of Orthodox faithful already know this it could well be that this also is an influence on your friend.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Yes - this is something that worries me. I do not really know what constitutes a physical relationship (this is why I asked about kissing in the original post!). I would like to live with my partner soon, but I am concerned. I know he should talk to his priest, but he is stuck in the UK and the priest he knows well is in Russia. Also, I do not want to upset his parents by doing something they might misinterpret or consider offensive.

[MasTaBlau]

L. Allen wrote:

Yes - this is something that worries me. I do not really know what constitutes a physical relationship (this is why I asked about kissing in the original post!). I would like to live with my partner soon, but I am concerned. An ongoing physical relatationship could mean two possible things I think:

i) a couple living together outside of marriage.

ii) a couple that is dating and makes no commitment to refrain from a physical relationshp before marriage.


It should be said however that most priests look at an occasional lapse of a dating couple who has commited to chastity before marriage as allowing for a lot more latitude than a couple that has made no such commitment and does not even try. In the case of a lapse there could be a penance of one sort or another. But this wouldn't likely bar the person from communing as long as the relationship lasted as long as the priest felt a real effort was being undertaken by the couple.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[rhiniddibiarmr]

Hi Lucy,
One thing to point out is that fasting from marital relations for a period of time is biblical. Paul tells us that this is a good thing to do:
1 Corinthians 7:1-9 - "Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband. The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife. Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency. But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment. For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that. I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn."

As far as mixed relationships go...
When my wife and I first met in college, she was Methodist, and I was in my 3 year period of being what some Orthodox refer to as a "Chreaster," only going to church on Christmas and Easter. My wife did not understand Orthodoxy at all. When I tried to take her to church, the Greek part of the service confused her even more. Finally, after 2 years of dating, we got engaged and I moved away for graduate school for a year. During that year, my mom took my wife to an OCA church a few times, and she started to read some books as well. She still wasn't super keen on the idea of Orthodoxy yet, but at least she was starting to ask questions. At the end of my first year of grad school, I went home and we got married. Fr. Stephen Freeman (of the Glory to God podcast and blog) married us, and he was a big help with my in-laws and my wife starting to understand some things.

Then we moved to Texas, and within a month we were helping to start a mission in our town. I became the choir director, which meant I would be going to church a lot, so my wife decided it was time to start catechism. I've mentioned on here before that our priest really made the difference with her choice to become Orthodox. He was also a convert, and could explain things to her in a way that I couldn't, having grown up in the church.

Reading all of that, I'm not sure if that really helps much or not, but sometimes reading someone else's story can help.

With regards to fasting, I sometimes feel like I am in a mixed relationship, because my wife has either been pregnant or nursing for the past three years or so (we have a 2 year old and 5 month old). She, and the 2 year old, aren't required to fast, so I find myself having to cook 2 dinners on many occasions. It takes a while to get to point where you can do it, but it does get easy. Especially in America, where we are a minority, and we often find ourselves with friends or family that do not fast. Even harder if you are on the old calendar.

I think I've rambled enough.
Sbdn. Anthony

[BigBobdd]

Yes, sexual relations are only appropriate within marriage

Fr David Moser I would have thought that a High Anglican priest would give the same answer.

Dear L. Allen - it seems your partner thinks God and His Holy Church know better than he does and he defers to them, and does not seek his own will. As the others have said, what a rarity! What a treasure!

[bQXHsKzS]

Hi Lucy,
One thing to point out is that fasting from marital relations for a period of time is biblical. Paul tells us that this is a good thing to do:
1 Corinthians 7:1-9 - "Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband. The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife. Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency. But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment. For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that. I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn."

As far as mixed relationships go...
When my wife and I first met in college, she was Methodist, and I was in my 3 year period of being what some Orthodox refer to as a "Chreaster," only going to church on Christmas and Easter. My wife did not understand Orthodoxy at all. When I tried to take her to church, the Greek part of the service confused her even more. Finally, after 2 years of dating, we got engaged and I moved away for graduate school for a year. During that year, my mom took my wife to an OCA church a few times, and she started to read some books as well. She still wasn't super keen on the idea of Orthodoxy yet, but at least she was starting to ask questions. At the end of my first year of grad school, I went home and we got married. Fr. Stephen Freeman (of the Glory to God podcast and blog) married us, and he was a big help with my in-laws and my wife starting to understand some things.

Then we moved to Texas, and within a month we were helping to start a mission in our town. I became the choir director, which meant I would be going to church a lot, so my wife decided it was time to start catechism. I've mentioned on here before that our priest really made the difference with her choice to become Orthodox. He was also a convert, and could explain things to her in a way that I couldn't, having grown up in the church.

Reading all of that, I'm not sure if that really helps much or not, but sometimes reading someone else's story can help.

With regards to fasting, I sometimes feel like I am in a mixed relationship, because my wife has either been pregnant or nursing for the past three years or so (we have a 2 year old and 5 month old). She, and the 2 year old, aren't required to fast, so I find myself having to cook 2 dinners on many occasions. It takes a while to get to point where you can do it, but it does get easy. Especially in America, where we are a minority, and we often find ourselves with friends or family that do not fast. Even harder if you are on the old calendar.

I think I've rambled enough.
Sbdn. Anthony

The rambling was interesting! Thanks very much. My partner would be amused at your self-control in cooking two meals, too. Wow.

[Fausqueuego]

I would have thought that a High Anglican priest would give the same answer.

Dear L. Allen - it seems your partner thinks God and His Holy Church know better than he does and he defers to them, and does not seek his own will. As the others have said, what a rarity! What a treasure!

Hi there, thanks for commenting. Actually, the Anglican vicar who brought me up is very liberal about relationships - but then, he comes from the church where my parents (one whom is an atheist) were married, so perhaps the community is quite relaxed on this issue. I was always encouraged to believe that loving relationships were of great importance, but this did not mean that sex before marriage was prohibited. I would have thought that we all think God knows better than us, but it is hard to translate that knowledge into a coherent understanding of how to live one's life.

[Veveseinlep]

Wow. My dear, I would like you to consider the idea of you respecting your partner enough to refrain from living together. It would definitely be violating the beliefs that he will have learned from his Orthodox parents (and I wouldn't be surprised if it upset them). It will bar him from Holy Communion. It would be unjust to him to pressure him into it.

Orthodox Christianity, as you may have gathered from the above very informative posts, maintains the Scriptural teaching that sexual relations are only for married couples. This was universally taught by all Christian churches until very recently (the last 30 years). I'm rather shocked (scandalized, even) that a High Anglican clergyman would teach that premarital sex is permissible under any circumstances.

It's wonderful that you're making an effort to understand your partner's beliefs. Keep in mind that Orthodox Christianity isn't just any Christianity -- it's steel-belted, iron-fortified Christianity!

-Kseniya

[mtvlover571]

Wow. My dear, I would like you to consider the idea of you respecting your partner enough to refrain from living together. It would definitely be violating the beliefs that he will have learned from his Orthodox parents (and I wouldn't be surprised if it upset them). It will bar him from Holy Communion. It would be unjust to him to pressure him into it.

Orthodox Christianity, as you may have gathered from the above very informative posts, maintains the Scriptural teaching that sexual relations are only for married couples. This was universally taught by all Christian churches until very recently (the last 30 years). I'm rather shocked (scandalized, even) that a High Anglican clergyman would teach that premarital sex is permissible under any circumstances.

It's wonderful that you're making an effort to understand your partner's beliefs. Keep in mind that Orthodox Christianity isn't just any Christianity -- it's steel-belted, iron-fortified Christianity!

-Kseniya

I like the idea of 'steel-belted, iron-fortified Christianity!' - especially with the smiley face. Thanks. Can you - or someone - help me to understand why living together is considered wrong? I am, as you see, trying hard to learn about and understand my partner's beliefs. I do not quite understand what it is that is objected to - is it something to do with the temptation being there? Please explain - I would be glad to hear.

(I will just point out that your italics are a little scary!)

Thanks for replying!

[snova]

I was not going to chime in and after writing I may regret my post...

Why think of your relationship as "mixed". We are all children of God. We are all temples of the Holy Spirit. We are all the same in the eyes of God. Scripture is not suggestive. They are not the 10 suggestions. God really did mean it when he said thou shalt not. He told us, he had the prophets tell us, Moses told us, Christ told us (He is God too), the apostles told us. We are not listening.

I fully believe in all my heart and the over lying reason I converted; God is the same yesterday, Today and forever. If this statement is correct, so is His church he founded 2000 years ago. The church has not changed to fit the fads of the 21st century or any other century. The gates of Hell shall not prevail against her. He said so. If this statement is not correct, God is a liar and we are all living in vain.

Living together will scandalize not only him, but his parents, his/their friends and his/their church family. We are not without witnesses. When we are baptized, we are safeguarded by the loving eyes of ALL Orthodox Chirsitans to help us in our walk toward God. It is our responsibility and obligation to help each other out of sin. Sex before marriage; cohabitation? yes, what we call sin. (missing the mark) We can do better than this. We don't have to live as "the world says to". Look at the divorce rate these days.

What is permissable? holding hands, kissing; sure. But when the body becomes "inflamed", through a little too much kissing or expecially caresses, someone has just crossed the line in the sand. There are 4 steps towards sin.

1) being tempted
2) accepting the tempt into your mind and heart
3) toying with the temptation
4) acting on the temptation

Once you get passed #1, you (plural) are on rocky ground. Once you (plural) get passed #2 you are on slippery ground, once you (plural) get passed #3 you better have a safety net cause you are falling real fast real hard. Once you (plural) get passed #4, the sin is committed and getting back to a place of safety is now double the work of just refusing the temptation in the first place.

There are several ways to sin

1) right out sinning
2) approval of another's sin
3) helping someone to sin
4) participating in another's sin
5) causing another to sin

God cannot stand sin. Jesus Himself took on the sins of the world and what did He say to God on the cross? "Why have you forsaken Me?" If God will turn His back on His only begotten Son, how much will He turn His back on a sinner like me?

Yes, I like the Prodigal Son must return to him. but after how much heartache? The older son never had this heartache because he never left his Father.

Respect your friend. Respect yourself. Respect your future marriage. My wife and I did not have relations before we were married. How blissful the honeymoon was. God is ever present. When thoughts come up to commit physical acts, (see what St. Paul says about fornicators) try to envision God physically between you and your friend. Would you want God to "see", not that He doesn't anyway, what you are doing? If this is too hard, pretend your grandmother or, well anyone, is sitting right there watching you. Would you do the act in front of others? Then don't do it "in front" of God.

This is not meant to make you or anyone else feel bad. It is the struggle I went through before I converted. We are not animals. We don't have to succomb to our base nature. God loves us more than we can ever love Him. But this does not mean we can say "oh well, I'm just human and I have desires; He made me this way so I will just give in to them; besides everyone is "doing" it." God forbid.

In Christ

Paul

[botagozzz]

Dear Lucy,

With all due respect, you indicate that you are confused, but I think that you are also confusing us!

In your first post you said:

However, my difficulty is that my partner believes that sex is only appropriate within marriage, and sexual contact of any kind is not allowed during fasting. While I respect this, I don't agree with his theology (and I find it highly frustrating!). You also said:

I'm not sure how his view proves that I'm 'loved, valued and respected for *you* and not for anything else' though – how so? My understanding is that these things are an important part of me, not an 'anything else' at all. It can feel as if part of me is being rejected. If these things are such an important part of marriage, why are they irrelevant at this stage? This is something that has been consistently confusing me. But then in another later post, after many posts to try to help you understand, you said:

Can you - or someone - help me to understand why living together is considered wrong? I am, as you see, trying hard to learn about and understand my partner's beliefs. I do not quite understand what it is that is objected to - is it something to do with the temptation being there? SO...Are you still talking about premarital sex or are you now talking about platonic living together arrangements?

(I would also like you to please consider your part in tempting your boyfriend into acts which he understands to be sinful...)

Thank you for your clarification,
Alice

[Annewsded]

We should add though that for an Orthodox priest it would be the required norm to not allow someone to commune who was in an ongoing physical relationship outside of marriage.

I don't know about that. I have encountered a number of priests who in certain situations have permitted members in pre-marital relationships to Communicate.