[Abaronos]

V, you have put out so much good info in the past 24 hours that I don't know where to start. Possibly, I can start first by saying thanks again. I guess we all communicate and understand in different ways somewhat, but this is one of the rare times I feel that I have experienced a true online interpersonal communication since I stared with electronic forums about 2.5 years ago.

And, it is not lost on me that this experience includes a heavy dose of "definition" and "straight talk." I don't understand why we can't have more of this. And, on the other hand, it is also not lost on me what a great irony is at play here as we articulate our position about spiritual perception (as well as spiritual speech) as it relates to the Apostles letter 1 Cor 2:1-16. Sometimes I wonder if anyone here has ever read this passage. I am excited about the turn in this discussion because it is very beneficial to determine the difference between such as 1.) abstract thought that is only within the intelligence and 2.) abstract thought that springs forth from the intellect as well as discerning the difference between such as 1.) helps in the form of circular speech up in the clouds with no real meaning and 2.) spiritual wisdom and spiritual words from one with the mind of Christ.

So, I hope that you can see that I am not hostile at all here in this conversation; but, instead, just the opposite, I am grateful and all ears. I know we cannot be direct with everyone because it will short circuit the process and cause some problems for some, but if this thread continues to be a treasure trove I hope you will not confuse any directness on my part with any kind of aggression. Some folks need to be babied or they will throw a tantrum when discussing such matters that might mess with their system, but I do not perceive this to be the case with you.

So with that disclaimer of sorts in mind . . . as a possible starting place (as miserable as it is), I would like to point to the words of the Apostle Paul in 1 Cor 2 and to your writing below:

Rick, abstract thinking is merely rational thinking applied to a whole beyond the here and now facts. It is still a subset of rational or intelligent thinking and still has a role to play in our life .. only that it is within intelligence and not intellect.

and, I would like to throw out a question in the form of:

Who determines whether abstract thinking is manifesting itself from the intelligence and not the intellect?

You answered very kindly and very well my question about 'why' you wrote what you wrote in the "Censers" thread the other day. But, I think ultimately, this is the question that I had on my mind the other day when I asked you for some help.

Thanks for demonstrating that we can sit down and articulate our position, there are clear definitions to be found within an Orthodox anthropology, and Orthodoxy is not completely unsystematic.