[incizarry]

Yesterday I came across this site http://www.uoregon.edu/~vaintrob/katya/update.html

Reading this mother's agonizing story but especially, looking at the photos she posted of her little girl, I was so overwhelmed that I found it hard to even look at the angel face of this baby.

All last night I was uneasy - even had strange, disturbing dreams - and this morning, as soon as I opened my computer I went straight to her site.

Wihout getting too theoretical, please, please can we discuss why children like this baby have to suffer. I'm not a complete idiot concerning Orthodox beliefs, so I suppose that what I want is a frank, honest discussion that will give me a ray of hope, something that will make me stop hating this world and living in it when such cruel and unfair things happen (that's the way I feel this morning, sorry...)


This child was surrounded by loving people who helped her and she was so, so brave. Did her suffering in some way mature her beyond her years? She even wrote poetry that, in my opinion, shows an insight not many adults are capable of.


Why was her little body tortured the way it was? When something bad happens we all use every means at our disposal to remedy it, but I can't help wondering sometimes whether we cause unnecessary suffering to those who already have their illnesses to cope with. Lots of drugs work but 99% have serious, sometimes devastating, side-effects. I know that quite a few Orthodox priests and nuns have refused medical treatment and relied on God's help, but which is the better way. Doctors are also instruments that God uses but we are all aware that in today's world patients are sometimes used ruthlessly by chemical companies (with the help of doctors) to promote their products.

I know this from personal experience because a couple of years ago my son was seriously ill. The doctors in our local hospital did a terrific job - his constitution also helped him they told us - but each day at 1p.m. after their daily conference they would first see the representatives of the various drug companies and then they would see the families of the patients, who wanted information about what was happening. So, you can see why on the one hand I am grateful but on the other I am aware of perhaps sinister undercurrents in the medical profession. Sometimes it's just a case of "try this and if it doesn't work, we'll try something else". In our case we were very, very lucky and I thank God for the people who helped him.

Sorry to keep on and on but I need your opinions on these two questions - suffering and what kind of medical treatments we can resort to.

Effie

[Fgunehjf]

Yasou Effie,

Thank you for the link. It truly is a sad situation this family is going through. The questions you are asking are some of the hardest to answer. I wait patiently for others to help give more understanding to why the innocent suffer. The fact that this family shows so much love and self-sacrifice towards each other may provide a hint as to why God allows such suffering to happen.

As a physician, I would like to address some of the things you stated, for what its worth.

Lots of drugs work but 99% have serious, sometimes devastating, side-effects.

While of course there exist drugs which have serious side effects, I would say that those are in the minority. The vast majority of drugs used have excellent risk ratio profiles. Essentially every drug in the US undergo rigorous trials before they can be allowed for public use. This is of course not a perfect system, but it does work quite well. Of course, when mistakes do occur, they become headline news (as they should).

Doctors are also instruments that God uses but we are all aware that in today's world patients are sometimes used ruthlessly by chemical companies (with the help of doctors) to promote their products. This, unfortunatly, is true. Doctors have high fiduciary standards to maintain, but they are sinners like all of us and thus sometimes fail their patients. Drug companies have no fiduciary standards and are simply profit-driven corporations. Thus, they answer to the almighty dollar first and foremost.

..each day at 1p.m. after their daily conference they would first see the representatives of the various drug companies and then they would see the families of the patients, who wanted information about what was happening. So, you can see why on the one hand I am grateful but on the other I am aware of perhaps sinister undercurrents in the medical profession. Many hospitals have conferences around noon time in which drug companies serve food and discuss their products. This practice has received much scrutiny as of late, and thankfully, their happening less and less, especially in academic hospitals.

Sorry to keep on and on but I need your opinions on these two questions - suffering and what kind of medical treatments we can resort to. Again, I leave your first question to others more knowledgable. The second question, I think, depends on the patient's pathology, the treatment options available, and most importantly, the patient's own wishes.

I hope this help. My prayers are with you and this family.

[hubua990]

We need doctors who believe in God and who ethically follow their profession.

I can't think of a more difficult profession - I get depressed just entering a hospital.

re drugs and their side effects :

If such a low percentage of drugs have negative side effects then why are so many side effects listed in the papers inside the boxes. When taking medication I always read everything very carefully - even though this usually brings on a worsening of my condition. (I tried to insert a happy smiley here but was unsuccessful).

When I started taking medication for my diabetes I asked my doctor about the side effects and he said that there were some side effects but it would be worse if I didn't take anything.

The side effects of the drugs the little girl in the article was taking were serious and she suffered.

The whole subject is very painful but it's a part of life I suppose. I remember a friend I worked with many years ago. He was French and his wife had cancer. They returned to Paris where she died (although she asked that her body be buried here in Greece). When he returned to work it helped him to talk about it and one of the things I remember him saying was that it amazed him that the hospital (can't remember the name but he said it was one of the best in Paris) was full of young children, even babies who had cancer. I listened to him, I heard what he was saying but if you haven't actually seen what the other person has seen, to a certain extent it's just words. Looking at the various photos of Katya I felt as if she were mine - she even looks like my youngest sister when she was that age - and I felt so angry.

I've been trying to find articles on the Internet from Orthodox sources concerning suffering. I've found one or two that answer some questions but I'm still trying to sort out my thoughts...

some thoughts and quotes I've written down :

- man is part of the natural order
- pain and suffering are not punishment or whatever and they do not in some mysterious way "serve God's end"
- christianity is victory over evil and death but it is a victory that is to come
- we hate death and sickness - and forces of chance that destroy
- the answer is unanswerable

there were two very good articles on the site "Our Life in Christ" Jan 16, 2005

Effie

[NumStulpata]

Yasou Effie

This is quite irrelevant to our discussion but your being a doctor you might perhaps find it interesting.

Yasou = ygeia sou = Ygeia means health and sou as you know means your

Therefore, this greeting in Greek means Your health or Be healthy.

I've often thought of the many English speaking people who know the Greek language without even being aware of it.

Effie

[12Dvop4I]

Yasou Effie

This is quite irrelevant to our discussion but your being a doctor you might perhaps find it interesting.

Yasou = ygeia sou = Ygeia means health and sou as you know means your

Therefore, this greeting in Greek means Your health or Be healthy.

I've often thought of the many English speaking people who know the Greek language without even being aware of it.

Effie

So interesting! The Ethiopian greeting in Amharic is "Tena'yistiling" - which means - May He give you health, on my behalf (or for me) - the "He", being God. [Tena] = Health, and all the rest is "May He give to you, for me".

Regarding children suffering, I have no answers. Only a brief observation - when I worked in the hospital in India as a nursing student, I noticed that the Children suffered far more patiently than grown ups did - they didn't complain as much, they didn't get angry and they hated no one. As much as we tried to alleviate their pain, we always caused them pain - with shots or medicines, etc. It's not like you can explain to an infant that he needs to the medicine to get well... BUT they made friends with you anyway. Didn't make sense that they could still trust, smile and love, it only made it that much harder to see the little ones suffer.

In Christ,
Mary.

[avaiftBoara]

Effie,

I don't know if a conversation that I had once with my daughter will be of any help, but I'd like to share it in hopes that it may help. I too have spent many hours contemplating the suffering in this world. One day my daughter asked me the big "why".

I had no idea of how I would answer and just started talking. What I settled on was that it all helps us to become better people. I have learned to be more compassionate and patient because I too have been sick and hurt. I am more greatful for every seemingly small blessing because I have felt what it is to have nothing. I cherish and love others because I have been loved and supported through difficulties. I have more faith because I can see that God alone has brought me through all of these things. Many of the best parts of my character are the direct result of the pain and suffering that I have either experienced or witnessed. Holy scripture doesn't say "if" we experience trials and tribulations, but "when".

My daughter, who I believe at the times was 9 or 10, looked at me and exclaimed "I get it!" I asked her to elaborate and she said that "God gives us glimpses of Him and of heaven in the good things here on earth so we don't lose sight of where we are headed. And that there can never be peace on earth, where there is no pain or suffering, or we'd want to stay here. When we go home, all the bad stuff will finally end."

In Christ,
Sophia

[mikapoq]

What a blessing this morning to read so many warm and thoughtful responses to such a difficult question.

I only have a little to add, to share in my own experience of suffering-

* Our Enemy will use collective suffering to wage a fierce battle in the mind

...that is, rather than to look at ourselves or our neighbor's pain, we tend to mentally drift toward why? why does this little child suffer? then, why is the hospital filled with such suffering? ...and the war...and other atrocities..and the daily news...and so on.

This type of thinking precipates confusion, mental exhaustion and feeling overwhelmed (what can I possibly do in all this mess?) ...all tools of the Enemy.

I have altered a few things in my life as a remedy to such chaotic thinking:
1) I limit my source of news to print and occasionally radio. I haven't watched the news on t.v. for years now because graphic images of evil and suffering stay with me in horrible ways.

2) Prayer - our most valuable tool in the defeat of Satan's plans...prayers for healing, prayers for strength of mind, prayers for guidance knowing that God will use me as an insturment of his mercy and peace. Knowing that everyday, in my home, in the life of my children, my little community, God can affect change through me.

3) As regarding the trials in my own life, I learned to Praise God for trials. This was no easy task...and invoked many hours of anger at God. But you know, through His mercy and patience with me, I discovered that what St. Ilias the Presbyter said is gold:

"Shaking a stick at dogs provokes their fury; forcing oneself to pray in purity provokes the fury of the demons"

Satan would have us wring our hands in fret, worry, dissention, chaos, and depression...

God would have us continue on a long obedience in the same direction, with our eyes fixed upon Him- praying, helping, listening, sharing, comforting.

[shemadagaswer]

Suffering can lead in two directions: fear and anger, or humility and compassion. From a doctrinal perspective, suffering is caused by human disobedience that permits corruption into the fabric of creation. Our natural state is immortality and to live in perfect harmony with God and His creation. It is an unnatural state to suffer and die. But this doctrinal perspective comes from an experiential examination of the alternatives. Either fear and anger on the one hand, or humility and compassion on the other. And people found that with the latter comes illumination and purity of heart. So it always gets back to the practical effects of our choices. What would you rather do, be angry and feel victimized by your suffering, or find humility, compassion and faith in your suffering? Why do we need a theoretical justification for the right path? The spiritual life is not a theory of anything. It has to be lived. Looking for a theory behind suffering is a way of avoiding the task of applying God's commandments in our lives. As long as we are looking for a theoretical way out, we lose out.

[MariaBeautys]

That is an excellent post, Owen.

[scoundtrack]

Seconded. As someone said, don't drag your cross - carry it! I happened to turn just now to volume 2 of Pope Shenouda's 'Words of Spiritual Benefit' where he speaks of 'the glory of suffering' because for the Christian, 'suffering is inseparable from glory'. It was 'illumination and purity of heart', as Owen puts it, that, as Pope Shenouda says, opened to St Stephen the heavens and the glory of God and Jesus standing on the right hand of God. It is the kenosis-and-ascension so often mentioned by Elder Sophrony and Father Zacharias.

I see my failure as a Christian in the extent to which I do not accept the sufferings in my life but accuse everybody from God downwards, and seek consolation in self-pity and anger, and use them to justify my sins, instead of seeking true consolation which is in God.

[Hlennisal]

First, I’d just like outline what we, as Orthodox Christians, believe in very, very simple words :


-Sin, suffering and death came into the world because Adam and Eve disobeyed God. Everyone is affected even babies through no sin of their own but just by being born into this world.

-God can perform miracles i.e. go against His natural order in various ways, one of the least spectacular being the sudden activation of the immune system inside the bodies He created through some cause or other – usually an unrelated virus.

-But what if there is no miracle? Why should babies suffer and where is God in their suffering?

Babies and children suffer because sin is alive and well in this world. Sin (greed) causes pollution, chemicals, unhealthy methods of growing food. Sometimes our own bodies - the genes we inherit from our parents - are responsible.


I found this in one of the articles I have been reading (LifeLine) and I believe it is true :

“God is present in the midst of pain, sorrow and suffering through our Christ-like actions to each other.”

The kind-hearted nurse going out of her way to ease the suffering of her patients, the mother keeping vigil over a sick child and making sure it has everything it wants even before it knows it wants it, friends of the family making time to spend with the sick child and entertaining it to ensure that it is happy. We saw all of this in the article I posted. In the midst of Katya’s suffering the people near to her made very certain that no method of comforting her was overlooked.

The last paragraph of the article I found on the LifeLine site :

“Where is God in times of suffering? As He promised, He is with us. God is powerful enough to wipe out the evil of this world, but that would mean wiping us out. Because of His unsurpassed love for us He found another way that does not compromise our free will. If we separate ourselves from sin, death becomes a doorway to joining with Him for eternity where He, “will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away” (Revelation 21:4).”



I found a very good site that deals with what the Fathers say about suffering and it is definitely worth reading. : Bishop Alexander Mileant : The Holy Fathers On Illness Missionary Leaflet # EA30

An excerpt :

“The patience we can learn on a sickbed cannot be overemphasized. Elder Macarius of Optina wrote about this to one who was ill:

"I was much pleased to hear from your relation how bravely you are bearing the cruel scourge of your heavy sickness. Verily, as the man of the flesh perishes, so is the spiritual man renewed."

The above is relevant to Owen and Sophia’s posts :

Sophia : “What I settled on was that it all helps us to become better people. I have learned to be more compassionate and patient because I too have been sick and hurt. I am more greatful for every seemingly small blessing because I have felt what it is to have nothing. I cherish and love others because I have been loved and supported through difficulties.”

Owen : “Our natural state is immortality and to live in perfect harmony with God and His creation. It is an unnatural state to suffer and die. But this doctrinal perspective comes from an experiential examination of the alternatives. Either fear and anger on the one hand, or humility and compassion on the other. And people found that with the latter comes illumination and purity of heart”.

There is something that I need help with :


Why did St. Chrysostom say : Whether God brings upon us a famine, or a war, or any calamity whatsoever, He does so out of His exceeding great care and kindness" (St. John Chrysostom, Homily 7, On the Statues).

Could someone please explain this to me. Does God cause disaster or does he allow it. St. Chrysostom uses the words “brings upon us”. He doesn't say "allows".

[Thifiadardivy]

“THE CHRISTIAN VIEW OF MEDICINE by Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov

When St. Basil the Great was asked if going to a doctor and taking medicine were in keeping with ways of piety, he replied:

"Every art is God's gift to us, making up for what is lacking in nature....After we were told to return to the earth from which we had come [at the time of the Fall], and were joined to a pain-ridden flesh that is destined to die, and made subject to disease because of sin, the science of medicine was given to us by God in order to relieve sickness, if only to a small degree (The Long Rules).

Therefore we may have recourse to physicians and take medicine, for this science is a gift from God. "God has given the herbs of the earth, and its drugs, for the healing of the body, commanding that the body, which is of the earth, should be cured by various things of the earth....When man fell from Paradise, he came immediately under the influence of disorders and maladies of the flesh....God therefore gave medicine to the world for comfort, for healing and care of the body, and permitted them to be used by those who could not entrust themselves completely to God" (St. Macarius the Great, Homily 48).

When to go to the doctor, and how often, should be a matter of common sense. But when we go, we should "not forget that no one can be cured without God. He who gives himself up to the art of healing must also surrender himself to God, and God will send help. The art of healing is not an obstacle to piety, but you must practice it with fear of God" (Sts. Barsanuphius and John, Philokalia).”

Faith also heals though.

Same article as above : “Such child-like trust in God is common among great souls. A similar simplicity may be seen in the life of Schemamonk Mark of Sarov:

"Towards the end of his life, Elder Mark suffered very much due to his legs: from lengthy standing at prayer and the extremely laborious walks through the wilderness, the Elder's legs became dropsical, swollen, and covered with wounds, so that for a certain time he was unable to walk. Certain of the Sa-rov brethren, feeling compassion for the Elder in his ailment, advised him to turn to the help of earthly doctors.
"The Elder, however, did not pay attention to this advice and gave himself completely over to the heavenly Healer of souls and bodies. With faith he took some oil from the lamp which burned before the icon of the Most Holy Mother of God of the Life-giving Fount, located in the cathedral of the Sarov Hermitage, and venerated as a miraculous icon, and anointed his ailing legs with this oil. To the general amazement of those who knew of his disease, he was soon completely healed from it through the grace-given help of the Mother of the Lord, who did not put his hope to shame" (Orthodox Life, no. 6, 1970).

The above is from the site I mentioned earlier.


The following text is from Orthodox America
________________________________________
Pastoral Commentary - Why Children Suffer
When Children Are Ill; Counsels of an Orthodox Doctor, Moscow 1992. Translated from Blagovestnik, parish bulletin of the Holy Virgin Cathedral in San Francisco, July 1993.

“My duties often take me to one of Moscow's homes for mentally-retarded children. Many of them don't even get out of bed; many have been simply abandoned by their parents as though they were incurably diseased; here are children with severe developmental problems. They all suffer terribly, although many of them, because of their retardation, aren't aware of it. Entering this house is like stepping into the depths of hell. And yet, it is precisely here that one can sense the sweetness of paradise; it comes from the hearts of those who live with God. Here are many children who go to church and who love the Lord.

Children and suffering. How can one make any sense of it? How can one bear it?

After having been in the children's home, one leaves with a feeling that perhaps this world-which the enemy of the human race is trying to turn into one big "Disneyland," full of gum-chewing, grinning, senselessly happy robots-this fallen pornographic world is still hanging on only because there are children who, by their sufferings, are outweighing our godlessness and unrepentance in the scales of God's justice. The fate of these children will be revealed in eternity. Their sickness and "abnormalities" are manifestations only of this earthly life. If God did not create death-which entered the world through man's falling away from God-He certainly did not create sickness. “


Here there is a saying "every home has it's cross" whether other people know about it or not. We each have to bear our own cross. It doesn't have to necessarily be illness it could be pride etc. In my case illness has forced me to examine my beliefs and to trust in God more than I used to. I suspect that it's the same for most people. That doesn't prevent us from feeling very disturbed when we see little girls like Katya. I can't help remembering what I read in one of the many books I have about Brother Paisios. Many sick people visited Brother Paisios, asking for his prayers and help, and he says that he wanted to be sick so that others needn't be. How closer to God can any man be!

Effie

[arindiruppyr]

That is an excellent post, Owen.

Seconded.

I cannot remember what comes next, the motion has been made and seconded. I think it is a vote. So, I vote that this is one of the best posts that has been made to this website. Especially, in the following when Owen writes:


Why do we need a theoretical justification for the right path? The spiritual life is not a theory of anything. It has to be lived.
I read this line about 60 seconds after Owen posted it yesterday, and I just cannot stop considering what is being said here.

Owen, if you might chance to see this post, seriously, thank you. There are more than a few people here in this community who are true blessings and tools in hand of God; and, from where I stand you are clearly one of these.

In Christ,
Rick

[NumsAmenniams]

The whole subject is very painful but it's a part of life I suppose. I remember a friend I worked with many years ago. He was French and his wife had cancer. They returned to Paris where she died (although she asked that her body be buried here in Greece). When he returned to work it helped him to talk about it and one of the things I remember him saying was that it amazed him that the hospital (can't remember the name but he said it was one of the best in Paris) was full of young children, even babies who had cancer. I listened to him, I heard what he was saying but if you haven't actually seen what the other person has seen, to a certain extent it's just words.

Yes, I completely agree with your colleague. I felt the same always when I had to go to the oncology ward for my mother. The most intense feeling was when I was for the first time outside Dana Faber Cancer Research Institute... I stood there for a couple of minutes observing all people who did not have hair (that is how I could say they were suffering from cancer) because of the therapies and so many thoughts bombarded my brain. When I went inside there were more people of various ages, and I felt overwhelmed.

An Orthodox Father has said start the day by visiting the hospitals and the cemetery and you will not sin during that day.

There is something that I need help with :

Why did St. Chrysostom say : Whether God brings upon us a famine, or a war, or any calamity whatsoever, He does so out of His exceeding great care and kindness" (St. John Chrysostom, Homily 7, On the Statues).

Could someone please explain this to me. Does God cause disaster or does he allow it. St. Chrysostom uses the words “brings upon us”. He doesn't say "allows".

No God does not cause evil, because He is Pan-Agathos (I can not recall the English equivalent here now- AllGood?) and because God is Love. He allows though, because without His Holy Will, nothing happens in this world.

What Saint Chrysostom says is what all the Fathers that spoke on the same issue, state also. That God allows suffering because of His endless love for us. I never had pondered this notion in my life previously, although I had my share of difficulties. However the illness of my mother brought it home very much for me, and God taught this to me and made me accept it through His immense patience and mercy. It may sound abstract, but after going through what I went with my mother's illness, I can attest that it is true: God allows suffering because of His great love for us and because He wants our salvation.
Also I learned another great truth that my selfishness about her illness did not make things easier for my mother. The day that I acknowledged this truth in my heart and asked forgiveness to God, my mother passed away. I learned many things from that experience. If one is a relative, humility, prayer, gratitude to God for the beautiful moments and not so beautiful ones, help the sick more than anything else.

In regards to the thread... have you read what Metropolitan of Nafpaktos writes on the issue, in his book Life after Death?

[GuitarLoverBe]

Reflecting on my own experience of my first wife's terminal cancer, I think illness is generally one of the most easily-answered questions, though I say 'generally' because years of great physical pain must be a grievous burden to bear. After all, we pray that we will not have a sudden death; illness gives us time to prepare. Other sufferings are not so easily explained, and it can be very hard to see God's goodness in apparently random and meaningless suffering.

[Liabmeasez]

Ah, I forgot to tell you, Effie, also about an article of Metropolitan Anthony Bloom: The suffering and death of children.

[flower-buy]

Ah, I forgot to tell you, Effie, also about an article of Metropolitan Anthony Bloom: The suffering and death of children.

What a terrific article. Thank you for posting the link, Nina. I have to read it again and think about it some more, but I know from my own experience that thinking about illness is more frightening than actually experiencing it. When something happens we cope, we take action in an attempt to help those who are suffering.

One of the things I think is beneficial here is that young children become acquainted with death early on and know that it is part of life. When someone dies, the body in its casket is kept all night in the house and a wake is held. This time is spent mourning, talking about the deceased, about his life and even some amusing incidents from that life. It is a precious time, a time that loved ones and friends need to say goodbye. Everyone cries a little, laughs a little, food is eaten and wine is drunk for forgiveness and for the soul of the person who has died. Then the funeral, the 3 days memorial, the 9 days memorial, the 40 days memorial and so on. This period of mourning is essential I believe in order for those left behind to accept the death of their loved one.

The tragedy is when someone young dies, especially after a long illness. The pain is unbearable but again, having friends and relatives around you helps. And again for 40 days the bereaved are not alone, every day people visit in order to comfort them. Thinking about the terrible waste of a life that had only just begun is what really hurts and you can't help but ask why.

The below is from the article you posted Nina.

"Very often, before suggesting absolution, I tell the person, 'Now, before you receive God's forgiveness, are you prepared to forgive him for all his misdeeds? Because, from what you have said, quite obviously he is the cause of all evils'. Well, this is very much the way in which people react to their own suffering and to the suffering of others around them; and if that is the approach, then there is nothing to lean on anyhow. Now I do not consider suffering and death as good in themselves. But they are not an evil in themselves. Nor are they a one-sided act of divine cruelty: life on earth is something more complex than this. God - his will, his wisdom, and his love - plays a substantial part. The powers of darkness play their part, and man plays his part between the evil which can invade the world and the good that can conquer it. "

A lot of people here have a passive fatalism concerning illness and death.
They say "that's all the life allotted him" or "his candle burnt out" or "it was his time". I don't think I have ever heard anyone say "God is to blame" - this would be blasphemy.

What do you think?

Effie

[Sakkola]

One of the things I think is beneficial here is that young children become acquainted with death early on and know that it is part of life.

I completely agree! I never had this chance before... because, thank God, my grandparents lived to the old age (although one passed away when I was a baby) - and when they passed away I was always in another country and my parents would not allow me to go. Or if some distant relative passed away my parents did not take me with them for the wake... therefore I never saw a dead person before. My mother's lifeless body was the first. I know that my parents tried to protect me, and above all, I know that God gave me strength I never imagined I had, however you are so right when you say children should be acquainted early on with such matters.


When someone dies, the body in its casket is kept all night in the house and a wake is held. This time is spent mourning, talking about the deceased, about his life and even some amusing incidents from that life. It is a precious time, a time that loved ones and friends need to say goodbye. Everyone cries a little, laughs a little, food is eaten and wine is drunk for forgiveness and for the soul of the person who has died. Then the funeral, the 3 days memorial, the 9 days memorial, the 40 days memorial and so on. This period of mourning is essential I believe in order for those left behind to accept the death of their loved one. What you say happened for my mother's wake. However there was no eating when the body was there (as a fast for the departed soul) - only coffee, biscuits, and water served; after burial there was the first meal. Also there was not laughter. So many people came and cried, even women I had no idea who they were came and wailed like my mother was their sister. It was very disturbing to hear the wailing. While I appreciated all and everyone being there and expressing their sorrow for my mother, I remembered what the Fathers say about it - that wailing does a great harm to the departed soul. Actually the wailing did not help us the living, either.

My mother told me always that she wanted people to hear chanting and classical music during her wake - but this was not possible. On the other hand her spiritual father told me to read the Psalms to my mother during her struggle the last 15 days. So while the lamenting women would stop because they had to breath. I would stand up and ask them if I could please read from the Psalms over my mother's body because that was the wish of my mother and the advise of her spiritual father. This gave us a break and it was different.

The memorial services were such a blessing from God.

The below is from the article you posted Nina.

"Very often, before suggesting absolution, I tell the person, 'Now, before you receive God's forgiveness, are you prepared to forgive him for all his misdeeds? Because, from what you have said, quite obviously he is the cause of all evils'. Well, this is very much the way in which people react to their own suffering and to the suffering of others around them; and if that is the approach, then there is nothing to lean on anyhow. Now I do not consider suffering and death as good in themselves. But they are not an evil in themselves. Nor are they a one-sided act of divine cruelty: life on earth is something more complex than this. God - his will, his wisdom, and his love - plays a substantial part. The powers of darkness play their part, and man plays his part between the evil which can invade the world and the good that can conquer it. "

A lot of people here have a passive fatalism concerning illness and death.
They say "that's all the life allotted him" or "his candle burnt out" or "it was his time". I don't think I have ever heard anyone say "God is to blame" - this would be blasphemy.

What do you think?

Effie This article helped me so much during my mother's illness. That is why I knew about it. The passage you post above actually made me laugh when I first read this article and also made me feel embarrassed because yes, I was so ignorant about many things pertaining death and did many stupid things when my mother was ill.

However now I can see and understand how God allowed everything and waited patiently for me to change my mind and understand some things about the why He allows what He does. I do not want to sound like a whiner, because all have mothers and parents and love them. But that's me and my relationship to my parents and I still think it is a great test to loose someone, that one loves. At the end it is important to acknowledge and accept that they are children of God and belong to Him. However I have not figured out a way how to keep from missing her.

[gluckmeea]

Nina, how can you not miss your mother?

Last Sunday we had the 1 year memorial for my sister in law's husband. She told me that every day is a battle. The first couple of months she was numb, and then the pain started.

After living here so many years I know that talking about the person who has died helps those who are left behind and I find that this is also true for my husband's sister.

Concerning the food eaten during the wake : there is a special dish made with angel-hair pasta. The pasta is sauteed in a little olive oil or butter, when it is golden brown, water in which sugar has been boiled is poured onto it and then white Carolina rice is added. We let it simmer until the rice is very soft and the water has been absorbed. It is then taken off the stove and a tea towel is placed over the saucepan before being covered with the saucepan lid. It is then left until all the moisture has been absorbed by the tea towel. This sweet rice dish is served in small dishes with cinnamon sprinkled over it.

In other parts of Greece they have other customs during the wake but rice is frequently used in different dishes e.g. rice soup perhaps. I don't know why rice is used during the wake while wheat is used in the kolava (the boiled wheat, walnut, raisin, almond dish that is served at the memorials after the funeral).

After the funeral there is a meal in honour of the deceased. No meat is served. A dried beans dish, some olives and wine is the usual fare for this meal. At the end of 40 days, after the memorial, meat can be eaten.

I suppose each region and each country has its own customs. I wish I knew more about the symbolism of each custom but, I don't. I do know that wheat symbolizes our rebirth.

I have seen that all these customs help the bereaved, the ones who are left behind to mourn and to feel the pain. It's easy to say that we must accept whatever happens but we have a saying here : "fire strikes and burns those in the house it strikes", it doesn't burn those outside the house no matter how much they might sympathize. Faith, and time, only time are the solution.

Effie

[niemamczasu]

"I was so ignorant about many things pertaining death and did many stupid things when my mother was ill. "

Nothing you do is stupid when someone you love is ill and suffering.

There are no rights and wrongs in these situations. Love is what counts and anything, anything you do when you love is right.

Effie