[EzekelEnzino]

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[zCLadw3R]

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[veizKinquiz]

Just too much room forwrror in thesystem re innocents being executed,regardless of dterrent effect.

[reiruviartugs]

I don't know about concrete or super glue, but a full hysterectomy would work and surgical sealing. j/k.

No system is perfect. How many murderers and criminals do we have walking amongst us because of a technicallity based on bad police work, poor lawyers and incompetent judges?

It's a matter of which side do you want to err on? I haven't looked at the statistics on crime in a while, but it used to be the number of confirmed innocent in prison/death row vs those that are guilty/unconfirmed innocent (Go to a prison, hardly any one in there ever did the crime they where convicted of) was relatively low. Now, what is worse? Being innocent and locked up for 20 years, your life destroyed and living in hell or being put to death? As part of required training I had to work in corrections for a while, I personally would rather die than be in prison.

We see more press on the wrongly convicted than the cases of the accurately convicted because, well... honestly no one cares. If the guy is guilty he gets convicted and goes away. If the guy is innocent, it gives people an excuse to complain and brings in ratings.

[veizKinquiz]

Yeah, except Forsaken , folks seem to take a different view when it is , say, a family member , like a dad or kid, that gets put away or executed wrongly.
Say your kid was innocent, but on death row. Could you look at this thing in a cost/benefit way, saying that despite the potential for error, overall, society is well served by the benefit vs the cost of error?
See, once this type of mistake starts hitting closer to home for folks, vs just reading about some stranger wrongly executed, they seem to see things differently.

[zCLadw3R]

There are animals out there in the human race who have total disregard for other people. If there is not just punishment for crimes it will continue to escalate. The death penalty doesn't stop all of them but if there are some who fear it, maybe some innocent victims may survive a crime such as rape or robbery,. We will have crime as long as there are people on this earth.

If one of these animals rob a convience store at night, using a weapon and the punishment is life, and if while robbing it they murder the attendant they will get two life sentances, What is the difference? I think they would be more likely to think they could kill the attendant eliminating a witness that could testify against them. What's there to risk? But somewhere in some of their minds if the thought of being strapped to a gurney and given a fatal injection might just keep them from comitting the murder.


Turn around your argument, what if it was your son or daughter that was murdered? Most people would want the most extreme penalty for the murderer.

Most of the death penalty cases I have seen and followed, the juries want more that circumstancial evidence. They watch law and order, forensic files on tv and they expect dna evidence and more than just eye witness testimony, which we all know may be flawed. Juries tend to more educated people with much more knowledge now days, this wasn't always true in the past.

[veizKinquiz]

I do not have much of a problem with the death penalty, if you get the right guy.
But, FS, I don't buy the jury being overly bright or getting things right all that much.
Check out that innocence project site and some others and you will see that lots of folks get falsely convicted. Even if it is 5% , that means about 20,0000 folks are doing time for crimes they did not commit.
This is unavoidable, I guess. But, at least they are still breathing with the hope of exoneration. That is all gone if you execute the innocent.

[zCLadw3R]

I still believe in the DP. I am suspicious of the figures innocent project projects. I don't believe anyone should be sentenced to death on eye witness testimony or circumstancial evidence alone. But with dna evidence and other solid evidence such as in rape murders, dna pretty well says it beyond reasonable doubt.
Example, a cop killed on a traffic stop with a patrol unit video of the offense, the fact that cop has already identified person by a driver's license and communicated this to his dispatch, yea justice should be swift.

Our system has flaws but it's the best there is. Over seas some people are deemed guilty by one person and taken out and sumarily shot on the spot. I disagree with you on the point of the intelligence of the juries now a days. I'm one of the faction that believe OJ was guilty and his money bought his freedom.

[zCLadw3R]

Not much doubt about this one.

Ronnie lee Gardner is to die by firing squad in Utah just after midnight tonight. He was on trial in the mid eighties killing someone during a robbery. While appearing in court on this charge, he attempted an escape and procured a firearm which he gunned down an attorney who hid behind a door in the Court house.

At his sentencing he requested of the Judge to be executed by firing squad rather than the lethal injection. Wonder if the innocent movement believes in his guilt?

One of the victim's father died of a heartattack while Gardner was on death row. The father was demanding more swifter justice and didn't live to see the execution. The stress of losing a loved one and dealing with these issues may have lead to the heart attack. Who knows? One thing for sure, Gardner won't murder a third victim, ever.

I may be cold, but I can only think of one word for him. Bye.

[reiruviartugs]

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[reiruviartugs]

Arnold, Everyone is innocent in prison, the guilty always get away with it. As I stated earlier in this thread, the American legal system is based on the theory that it is better to let 1000 guilty people go than to imprison one innocent.

I know where you are coming from, but honestly, I disagree. This is something we'll have to agree to disagree on.

As for juries, I trust them like I do lawyers, judges and politicians. Considering they all seem to be interchangeable. Juries can be swayed based on which lawyer can paint a prettier mental image.

[veizKinquiz]

FS, I did criminal defense for about 4 years as a PD, and the vast majority of these guys are guilty as hell. But, there are some who get wrongly convicted. It is inevitable and iIhave no problem with the fact that the system is imperfect. But, executing some of these innocent folks is just not acceptable to me. The claimed benefit is outweighed by the harm.
As for juries, many have members that were not bright enough to get out of jury duty. And, if you look and see what folks read and watch on TV, the most popular stuff, it is hard to make a case that the average citizen operates ,intellectually, at much more than a primitive level.

[EzekelEnzino]

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[veizKinquiz]

Average reading level in this country is 6th grade, T. What can I say? I've been in a lot of trials.

[EzekelEnzino]

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[EzekelEnzino]

Arnold, as far as juries. I really don't think they are representative of America.
But they should be.

[zCLadw3R]

I gues someone needs to get on the phone with Rick Perry. Lets empty the prison of all those innocents. Lol

Sure it does happen, I don't believe Americans are quite as stupid as those figures protray.

[veizKinquiz]

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[Leczyslaw]

OMG - did someone just say that most americans operate, intellectually, at a primitive level? Yikes. I totally disagree.

You know what...this conversation has me thinking: I do truly wish that there were more supportive social programs in place. This discussion highlights for me that sometimes the criminal justice system is relied upon to do the work of a welfare system (but a few years after supportive intervention was required). I see that there has been a discussion of poverty and illiteracy. I wish, really, that people would support the chanelling of their tax dollars to target some of these social problems because it may have a positive impact (with regard to crime rates).

I know that folks sometimes dont' have much sympathy for the poor. But I had parents who divorced...my mother was on welfare (and me with her). It was a hard life, but it was avery temporary glitch in my life. I knew then, and I still believe it today, that had I been born into that poverty I would have remained there. I would not have been able to pull myself up by my bootstraps. So .. I don't know. I get it when other people dont and wish there were programs in place to help.

KitKat

[EzekelEnzino]

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