[BDDkDvgZ]

And furthermore... I think idea that the ideas of "cliques" in many cases (not all, but the majority) boil down to a question of perception. In a lot of cases, you have a choice to make about how you want to percieve things. People get involved with certain musicians usually because they spent a good amount of formative time learning from them and/or with them.

For me this is the case with Sean Cronin (who I grew up with), Amanda Tosoff and Evan Arntzen (who I went to college with), with Blaine Wikjord and Ross Taggart and Campbell Ryga (who encouraged me when I was young), with Bruno Hubert and Brad Turner who were some of the first people I saw play live in the city when I moved here and who continue to challenge my perceptions of music. Its not "cliquish" to want to play music with your best friends and people you respect. Its also not "cliquish" to call certain people first. Its the natural result of people taking the time to establish an identity by playing with people who share their values in music.

Setting up all the "better" players in Vancouver as being "cliquish" kind of does more to set yourself apart from "them" than anything "they" are doing, don't you think?

Brendan Davis and Chris Davis come to mind as two relatively new people to the Vancouver scene that I consider quite honoured to know and to play with, and I know a lot of people feel the same way. They have successfully integrated themselves into the Vancouver scene, mostly by being mellow and cool, playing well, being professional when called upon, and just generally being "down." I have never heard either one of them whine about Vancouver being "cliquish".

[Roamsaffots]

Thank you JC for the suggestion, I didn't have the time to write this before, but I appreciate it.
I don't think Morgan was trying to offend; neither was I.
The litany listed was simply an observation not a personal feeling.
As soon as I can think of some way to assure Morgan I have no real problem (with him) beyond his manner of expression I will do so.
Morgan, you're right. There's no moral dimension here at all, I didn't mean that.
I'll stop whining in the meantime and find something more constructive to write about. Didn't mean to step on so many toes...
I

[Roamsaffots]

I think the phrase I was looking for was, "the higher the monkey climbs, the more his backside is exposed."

[Fertionbratte]

I ran a jam session at Murphy's Pub on Seymour for four years (1992-96) with my good buddy bassist Jasper Clarke. It was my experience that these things kind of tend to find their own level, in the fullness of time. In the beginning we weren't exactly besieged by 'A' list players, nor did we deserve to be (Jasper and I were both jazz newbies at the time, and our original drums and guitar were both fellow VCC students). Eventually though, pretty much every player in town came down at least once. VCC drums and guitar moved on and were replaced, at various times, by Bruce Neilsen, Claude Ranger, Stan Taylor (who later worked on my Vancouver quintet for several years) Allan Johnston (ditto) Danny Parker, Chris Haas,Sharon Minemoto, Jon Roper, Ron Thompson, Chris Tarry, ...I'm leaving people out, I'm sure. In the front line we hosted Brad Turner, Al Cluten, Norm Quinn (later also in my quintet) Mike Allen (who cut me to ribbons on "Woody N You") Brian Harding, Alan Matheson, Dave Say, Bill Clarke, Coco Love Alcorn...once again, I'm sure I'll remember many more after I post.

I met almost everyone I know who was active on the Vancouver scene at that time on that gig. Many (Stan Taylor in particular) were extremely generous with their time and expertise, bestowing it on us when we (initially) were absolutely not playing on their level. Over the course of the four years, it was probably the single most significant musically formative experience of my life.

In one sense, we were lucky. There weren't many places to play jazz in Vancouver in the early 90s (The Glass Slipper was about it) and there were no other jam sessions. But our other advantage was longevity. It took a long time before anybody but other students showed up, and even then there were long fallow periods. There were certainly nights when I'd have really rather not been there, but by the end of the evening I was always glad I played, even if nobody showed up but the core quartet.

And a 'clique' is only a bad thing if you're not in it.

[gomosopions]

This topic had gone beyond a "live jazz listing" and has been moved to "general discussions". Ian, please post a new listing for the jam in live jazz listings and please include an address for the room, and a phone number wouldn't hurt.

carry on . . .

[Roamsaffots]

Thanks Brian, I was about to suggest something like that, since it must be embarrassing for some of the regular jammers who, thankfully, have remained nameless!
I appreciate the comments from such wonderful players, too, though I wonder sometimes why they bother to reply to my inane ramblings. So I feel I ought to clarify two issues brought up recently. The monkey phrase was self-referential, by the way.
Firstly, I have more problems with the lack of political political awareness Morgan expresses than any particular terms he may use. This is part of a different thread, and it was stupid of me to mention it in this one. I think I made it clear in that thread that I think cussing about working people doing their jobs as per their orders (guarding the border) is counterproductive and rather like blaming the victim -- although Morgan has certainly been a victim as have we all.
The political perspective, it seems to me, is that Canadian jazz musicians are performing a huge service in adopting Black American musical language and disseminating it worldwide (and hopefully improving the artform through direct influence).
This point of view makes the assumption that this function is perilous, indeed dangerous, and not appreciated by the current US administration generally or by it's border service in particular. Hence the ridiculous comment that "if he were Black..."
I also make the assumption that Morgan is an important player in this area, as a young leader. Hence the concern that nobody in the other thread was letting him know that there are ways of making a difference without roundly abusing the workers who are often incapable of independent thought.
Sorry if that made me look like I was trying to claim a "higher spiritual plane" since you've seen me use the same terms in jest.
I always leave politics at home on a Sunday, by the way; nobody loves to be represented on the bandstand by a blowhard.
The other point, and a somewhat more important one, is that I am at present an amateur jazz musician. I raised a family playing gigs but that was not in this country and most of it wasn't jazz. So I do understand the "money... to buy... fuckin' groceries and shit" remark and I sympathise. Here we return to the infamous "litany" because really, how does one pay $1000 a month for a small apartment for the family on $100 gigs? Since I have no solution to that one I try to avoid mentioning it. But since I am a fulltime student and have the time to play at weekly jams it would behoove me to stop mentioning the 'A' list players.
Since I have no career as such in Vancouver I only mentioned the word clique in my previous rant because it is a part of the litany I've been listening to since I moved here. Apparently this offended some people but I'm sure it is a part of the problem of building a jazz community as it is a part of our Canadian culture (I was born here; am I allowed to say that?). It must impact on the jamming. And lack thereof.
"There were certainly nights when I'd have really rather not been there but by the end of the evening I was always glad I played, even if nobody showed up but the core quartet." Indeed. Thanks for that.
Thanks again to the regular players and the numerous others who take the time to come out; none of this goes on the bandstand.
So my point is, it's not "my" jam, or one I "run" as such (not that there's anything wrong with that...) I am simply holding down a bass chair until someone, anyone, can come and help out. It's your jam if you want it.
And please, if you read something that you disagree with, object. Write back, set the record straight. It's a part of my own education.
I
PS I did set up a reggae jam on Mondays at the Biltmore some years ago and I hear it's still running although I haven't checked it out recently. If you start one on Sunday, Morgan, I can retire for the summer...

[Roamsaffots]

Hey Brian
Maybe we ought to rename this thread Ian's Inane Political Rant or, better yet, Chattering Monkey! Then I can resubmit the original Live Jazz listing as Jam at The End (you know, noncompetitive, nonpolitical jazz jam...).
Respects to the moderator
I