[Coollabioto]

But some people want pure electric vehicle. Why carry two engines (electric and an ICE), when you can, instead of weigh of the ICE, have more batteries, which extend the range even further?

I'll tell you why auto industry want electric&ICE hybrids. There's A LOT of maintenance with an ICE:
- oil
- oil filter
- air filter
- spark plugs
- tune ups
- yada, yada,...

with which Auto Industry earns it's money.

With pure electric vehicle, there's almost no maintenance. Only tires. You don't even need to change breaks because of regenerative breaking.

Adding batteries adds weight,a LOT of weight,and adding another 20 miles still doesn't bring such a thing up to being practical,we're talking about vehichles that get you around 60-100 miles and need several hours to recharge,a LOT of people need more than that.

I'd imagine the figures from most EV's about range are under absolutely perfect conditions that don't exist in the real world.

What if you live in a cold temperature? That easily takes effeceincy away from the batteries,what if you want to carry more than just yourself around? That adds weight,pulling more weight around decreases range even further,just like the weight from ll the addes batteries.

Battery tech is NOT good enougfh at this point to make a practical EV for the masses pure and simple,it just isn't.


I do admire the idea of getting away from what you're upset by,but the fact is that we can't affordably or practically do it right now.

[Sdzqerty]

The problem with today's auto industry is that they don't offer people what people want, but what Auto Industry wants. That's why GM is going down.

Why did GM take all good EV1s from their owners and crush them? Why were they such a threat to GM?

what are you talking about? The auto industry was doing just fine, making huge profits and people in the US were perfectly happy with their oversized SUV, cars and engines... [Ford/Gm are losing money in the US, not abroad) and then gas tripled, buyers overnight shifted their "wants" and people like you talk about how the car companies are in the trouble they are in because they were only offering what the "Auto industry wants". Had gas not gone up peoples wants would't have shifted... and those gas guzzlers were still selling well when gas was double, it was the triple part that made everyone reevaluate. The problem the car companies faced was the suddenness of the shift. It takes more than a month to redesign all of the vehicles.

[enteltcheft]

People do think "yes we can" that doesn't suddenly make it a simple endeavor or even a practical or affordable solution to hurredly jump in to EV's that don't meet a lot of people's needs and would be impossible to recharge if you were out and about and suddenly finding yourself low on power,or needing power after a long drive an having no way to do it.

Yes we can works,but again it's not just something whgere you say "yes we can" and all of the sudden you're just done and all bunnies,flowers and happy clouds.

It takes work to accomplish,the work is already being done,but the technologies are NOT there yet.

Otherwise why in the world don't we just say "yes we can" to spaceships and fusionpower and just magically hav ethat appear instead.

The appollo program started from nazi rocket technology which was actually not too far off from where it ended up and is STILL USED TODAY.

The technology for most americans is here. There would be very few people left that couldn't do with 250 miles range and 10 Minute quick charges.

I never said it would be simple or cheap (which also applies for the Apollo program) but you bring up an important point: The advantage you can get as a country being first in this market can last years.

[mQb0aVZe]

Toyota had Prius ready for the US market and US demand. They couldn't produce them in sufficient quantity. But they invested in long term R&D and that paid off. While GM totally scrapped the electricity and look where it got them.

[Sdzqerty]

The advantage you can get as a country being first in this market can last years.

not really, at least not to the extent you could earlier. At best, the US would be helped by just keeping the enormous resources spent on energy within the country. As far as profiteering off of it, production wise, it just costs too much to manufacture in the US, China/India would reap as much, if not more than the US.

[Coollabioto]

The technology for most americans is here. There would be very few people left that couldn't do with 250 miles range and 10 Minute quick charges.

Under ideal carefully controlled situations it may well work like that,in real world scenario's I doubt that 250 miles and a full charge in ten minutes is likely to be the norm.

Not to mention when the batteries start to develop "memory"

I also doubt that it would suit "most" americans,things are fairly spread out where I am and I regularly travel several hundred miles,where exactly would I plug in while out and around?

Where would most people do this? I know I am not alone in traveling long distances.

I'm thinking there's probably another variable you're overlooking,it can't be cheap to charge an EV,especially as often as it would need to be done,it certianly wouldn't be cheap once the time comes to switch batteries out.

[mQb0aVZe]

Adding batteries adds weight,a LOT of weight,and adding another 20 miles still doesn't bring such a thing up to being practical,we're talking about vehichles that get you around 60-100 miles and need several hours to recharge,a LOT of people need more than that.

I'd imagine the figures from most EV's about range are under absolutely perfect conditions that don't exist in the real world.

What if you live in a cold temperature? That easily takes effeceincy away from the batteries,what if you want to carry more than just yourself around? That adds weight,pulling more weight around decreases range even further,just like the weight from ll the addes batteries.

Battery tech is NOT good enougfh at this point to make a practical EV for the masses pure and simple,it just isn't.


I do admire the idea of getting away from what you're upset by,but the fact is that we can't affordably or practically do it right now.

It is done right now. Not by big auto makers, but by alternative makers and by home made conversions.

For example; in my country: http://www.ad-pecjak.si/ECO/Ecar1.htm

I, for example, drive a Vectrix - electric maxi-scooter. Range is between 60-80km, which is more than enough for my daily commute. I recharge aprox. once every two days.


And it's an USA company :-)

Yes, electric vehicles are not for all climates. But why would that be a limitation in all other climates, where they 'feel' perfectly well.

[Coollabioto]

Toyota had Prius ready for the US market and US demand. They couldn't produce them in sufficient quantity. But they invested in long term R&D and that paid off. While GM totally scrapped the electricity and look where it got them.

an even more practical solution would be to start shedding all the unnescesary extra weight that has been being steadily added to cars since the early to mid 90's.

It's a sad state of affairs when there are carberated cars from the mid 80's that can put down in real world applications similar fuel economy numbers to teh Prius you mention.

[Sdzqerty]

Toyota had Prius ready for the US market and US demand. They couldn't produce them in sufficient quantity. But they invested in long term R&D and that paid off. While GM totally scrapped the electricity and look where it got them.

they had been around and were selling at the same rate they are today before oil went crazy... you can buy a prius today, no problem...6-8 months ago, you could not. (gas is also 1/3rd ish what it was)
For a few years they were selling great, they are not selling like they used to.

[Coollabioto]

It is done right now. Not by big auto makers, but by alternative makers and by home made conversions.

For example; in my country: http://www.ad-pecjak.si/ECO/Ecar1.htm

I, for example, drive a Vectrix - electric maxi-scooter. Range is between 60-80km, which is more than enough for my daily commute. I recharge aprox. once every two days.


And it's an USA company :-)

Yes, electric vehicles are not for all climates. But why would that be a limitation in all other climates, where they 'feel' perfectly well.

I'm sorry,and I mean no disrespect,but it is kind of foolish to beleive or state that that thing is practical for everyone.

That will not,for most people,even come close to meating their needs and would only be operable in fair weather conditions.

I really can't see making atrip to the grocery store for a family,or hauling children to school,or driving yourself 20+ miles to work on a highway on that.

[Sdzqerty]

I'm sorry,and I mean no disrespect,but it is kind of foolish to beleive or state that that thing is practical for everyone.

That will not,for most people,even come close to meating their needs and would only be operable in fair weather conditions.

I really can't see making atrip to the grocery store for a family,or hauling children to school,or driving yourself 20+ miles to work on a highway on that.

have you been abroad? Man, in all the major EU cities i have been in the scooter is a huge player. Problem is, there is also very good mass transportation to fall back on over there, and since most of Europe is built up instead of out, like the states, it is hard for them to relate to just how far things are apart for half the US population.

[mQb0aVZe]

I agree. It's interesting how view about the same thing is different in different countries.

Scooters and maxi-scooters are used a lot in the EU. In Italy alone, there are over 300.000 new scooters sold every year.

Edit: And to comment Aramchek: 20 miles is no problem for this scooter. It does 100km/h (62mph). It does 20 miles on a highway without any problem and still has charge left.
It could do 180km/h (I talked to the engineer from the plant) but is electronicaly limited to 100km/h (62mph). It'shighway legal.

[enteltcheft]

Under ideal carefully controlled situations it may well work like that,in real world scenario's I doubt that 250 miles and a full charge in ten minutes is likely to be the norm.

Not to mention when the batteries start to develop "memory"

I also doubt that it would suit "most" americans,things are fairly spread out where I am and I regularly travel several hundred miles,where exactly would I plug in while out and around?

Where would most people do this? I know I am not alone in traveling long distances.

I'm thinking there's probably another variable you're overlooking,it can't be cheap to charge an EV,especially as often as it would need to be done,it certianly wouldn't be cheap once the time comes to switch batteries out.

The battery type doesn't develop memory, it does wear out.2000 cycles are given specs by BYD (a cycle means a recharge of 80%, or 2 40% recharges contrary to the belief by some people that each charge, no matter how small, counts as full cycle). So if you drive 400 Miles a day, needing 2 reacharges you would drive 400 000 before needing a new battery. Even half as much would be around the lifetime of an IC engine.

The TCOs aren't the problem, but making them clear to everyone.

I took the numbers of a German Automobile Agency once, for 4 years and 10000 miles the depreciation only was 40% of the cost of cheap cars and 60% of the luxury ones. The remaining costs are all affected by going electric.


The network of charging stations would exactly be where the most work needs to be done which could be done at the same time the power grid gets overhauled. Thats why it is not a walk in a park but a project comparable to the space program in the 60s.


Edit: I too think however, that non-plug in hybrids are inefficent and only serve as smug mobiles.

[Sdzqerty]

I agree. It's interesting how view about the same thing is different in different countries.

Scooters and maxi-scooters are used a lot in the EU. In Italy alone, there are over 300.000 new scooters sold every year.

LOL, dude, i have never seen or been scared to death by so many scooter as i was when i was in Rome [rofl]

The red light seems to have no meaning to 1/3rd the scooter i saw, and lord help u if u need to cross a busy street

[mQb0aVZe]

LOL, dude, i have never seen or been scared to death by so many scooter as i was when i was in Rome [rofl]

The red light seems to have no meaning to 1/3rd the scooter i saw, and lord help u if u need to cross a busy street

:-) All Italy is like that

You do understand then, why such a scooter, is I have, is a perfect fit for our (EU) roads. Granted, Germans do longer distances to work and back on their autobahns, but other countries have far less range to and from work.

My range to work is 11 kilometers (7 miles) and it's a straight road, with speed limits of 70km/h and 100km/h. Me and my girlfriend do round trips on weekends. 60 km to a lake or to somewhere else, is here, more than enough.

[ManHolDenPoker]

solar panels made out of photovoltaics are so innefficient now,

Corrected

[Sdzqerty]

Corrected

even still, they need to reach 50%+ to be feasible... the cost doesn't make sense at this point, they may pay themselves off in 10 years, but that 2% figure was from 2 or so years ago... so it doesn't make sense to buy somtin that will take ten years to pay off if you wait 5-7 yrs on those and now there are panels 3-4 times as efficient. I am not against them, i just don't think fiscally they make sense yet.

[Beriilosal]

2 hour commute each way,i did mess up slightly but you're not taking in to account it's a 2 hour each way drive.

Lets assume you average 60mph for two hours,that's 120 miles in two hours. 120+120=240 miles so yeah.

That also rules out charging your car overnight,since they're at work not home. *cough*

Also batteries sharply drop off in effeceincy,I doubt in any real world situation that an electric car will actually go 240 miles on one charge in real world situations.

I also doubt people's workplaces will allow them to plug their car in and run the electricity bill up at work,nor would there be anough outlets for everyone anyway.

Not a very practical solution at this time.

Uh, not that I'm going to discredit your math and all. . .

But going 60MPH anywhere around DC is a dream. Try more like 35MPH, tops.

I used to work with people that traveled 40 miles in one direction, and it took 2 hours for them to get to work. I personally live 25 miles from work, and if I drive in I'm looking at 1.5, 1.75hrs of commute time, one way.

And no, the work places out here in DC probably wouldn't allow people to charge up their cars unless given a massive tax break. Why you ask? It's a culture of quid pro quo out here that sucks a donkey's crusted over *******. God forbid someone just do something nice or helpful out here and not expect anything in return.

Anyway, the main gist is total electric cars won't be efficient in metropolitan areas. There's too much stop and sit time. Now, I do know people that have hybrids that get the suggested 50-ish MPG with them, however, in the summer they don't use the AC that much, and they drive very gently. Personally, I'm not one for sucking up exhaust fumes, so I have no clue how they do that. It makes me sick to sit in DC traffic with the windows down. Guess that's what I get for growing up a country boy with clean air, huh?

[enteltcheft]

Anyway, the main gist is total electric cars won't be efficient in metropolitan areas. There's too much stop and sit time.

Um, that is where electric cars shine the most and IC ones are least efficent.

[Spongebob]

If you think about how much oil could be saved if all cars on the planet were Diesel cars... that would end up in 30% and you wouldnt even need a different infrastucture.

Um, that is where electric cars shine the most and IC ones are least efficent.

Indeed! If there is ANY place for electric cars its urban areas!