[ZX3URrBH]

Absolutely!

I heard on NPR a few weeks ago that Colt alone manufacturers almost double the amount of guns annually that are sold legally. Where do you think those guns are going?

That was my point.

Guns are always manufactured by legal entities and companies that solely exist to supply the thriving US gun market.

These thousands of illegal guns are not being put together by some dude in shed, it's the same system that supplies legal guns which also supplies illegal ones, if not directly like you said, indirectly through the legal marketplace.

We already proved last time that you have no idea what goes on in the U.S.

I'm tired of hearing that fallacious ad hominem argument, how about you have another go ?

[JMLot]

I'm tired of hearing that fallacious ad hominem argument, how about you have another go ?

I'm tired of you misusing that term.

[Scfdglkn]

I'm tired of hearing that fallacious ad hominem argument, how about you have another go ?

Dude, you need to get to grips with that phrase now you have adopted it.

Example of ad hominem would be "You know nothing about guns. You are not American".*

* I think, anyway. I'm not very good with the context of it myself.

[rozneesitcn]

Why is Indianapolis such a crime infested city? (out of interest)

[SueveDobe]

Guns are always manufactured by legal entities and companies that solely exist to supply the thriving US gun market.

What about places like South Africa, Mexico, and Colombia? Libya? There are places all around the world that buy firearms. Sure, guns are produces by companies that specialize in making them. But they're not making them just for the U.S. market.

[ZX3URrBH]

Dude, you need to get to grips with that phrase now you have adopted it.

Example of ad hominem would be "You know nothing about guns. You are not American".*

* I think, anyway. I'm not very good with the context of it myself.

I'm tired of you misusing that term.

How exactly am I misusing that term ?

He answered to my post with an attack against me rather than tackling my statement.

That's exactly what ad hominem is.

What about places like South Africa, Mexico, and Colombia? Libya? There are places all around the world that buy firearms. Sure, guns are produces by companies that specialize in making them. But they're not making them just for the U.S. market.

I didn't say that there aren't any more markets at all. I'm saying that a most of them are made for the US market since it's the biggest consumer gun market out there.

And that wasn't even my point, it was that the legal market is used constantly to funnel guns into the illegal market.

[Scfdglkn]

How exactly am I misusing that term ?

The difference is fairly subtle, but effectively ad hominem is trying to make someone look wrong based on something else that is perceived as negative about them.

In this case, all that happened was that it was pointed out (in my opinion correctly) that you don't understand much about US culture.

Edit: There are some examples on here...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

[ZX3URrBH]

[B]

but effectively ad hominem is trying to make someone look wrong based on something else that is perceived as negative about them.

Yes, that's exactly what happened.

Now how about both you and him dispute my claims rather than making personal attacks. huh ?

[Scfdglkn]

[B]

Yes, that's exactly what happened.

Now how about both you and him dispute my claims rather than making personal attacks. huh ?

Oh dear. Look, what happened is that he DID back up his claim. He said that he didn't think you were qualified to talk on the subject based on what you have said in the past. That is NOT ad hominem.

Can someone else take the next shift here?

[ZX3URrBH]

Oh dear. Look, what happened is that he DID back up his claim. He said that he didn't think you were qualified to talk on the subject based on what you have said in the past. That is NOT ad hominem.

Can someone else take the next shift here?

Whatever he or you might think does not dispute my claims.

Ok, so yeah.

I'm not an expert on the US but my statement is right.

Does that make you happy ?

[Scfdglkn]

Does that make you happy ?

No it doesn't. This is clearly another subject that you think you understand and don't.

I'm not trying to be rude, re-read what he said and try to fit it into ad hominem.

[CIAFreeAgent]

Whatever he or you might think does not dispute my claims.

Your claim itself is a straw man, since laws are broken in the process of transferring a legally obtained firearm to an illegal market in the method you mention.

The problem is not that having legal guns is a bad thing, the problem is that people abuse the system to get the guns in to the hands of criminals/unregistered owners.


Thus stating that having the ability to legally own a gun fosters crime is a logical fallacy.

The true culprit is, as stated, abusing the system, thus illegal activity.

Countries with stricter laws, or outright restrictions also have illegal guns.

[JMLot]

Not wanting to argue with someone based on their lack of merit is not ad hominem.

Tinomen considered your post history and bailed on the discussion, that is intelligence, not ad hominem.

[ZX3URrBH]

No it doesn't. This is clearly another subject that you think you understand and don't.

I'm not trying to be rude, re-read what he said and try to fit it into ad hominem.

So by that summation, anything I ever say about the US is wrong, right ? Because that's what he's trying to imply with that statement.

Ad hominem or not, it's still didn't answer my post directly.

Your claim itself is a straw man, since laws are broken in the process of transferring a legally obtained firearm to an illegal market in the method you mention.

The problem is not that having legal guns is a bad thing, the problem is that people abuse the system to get the guns in to the hands of criminals/unregistered owners.


Thus stating that having the ability to legally own a gun fosters crime is a logical fallacy.

The true culprit is, as stated, abusing the system, thus illegal activity.

Countries with stricter laws, or outright restrictions also have illegal guns.

It's the system in place which allows this, hence my assertion that US gun problems are just the result of there being a legal market to begin with.

I never said that guns should be outlawed, I also never said that other countries don't have illegal guns.

But the US is only modern western country with a disproportionate amount of illegal guns and huge number of gun violence per capita.

Why are gun homicide rates in the US almost 20 times higher in the US than other high income modern countries ?

http://journals.lww.com/jtrauma/Abst...irearm.35.aspx

Not wanting to argue with someone based on their lack of merit is not ad hominem.

Tinomen considered your post history and bailed on the discussion, that is intelligence, not ad hominem.

And what does that get us ?

I'm not pretending to be an expert on anything, I just made a statement and only got personal attacks hurled at me.

That's how FM rolls, I guess.

[Scfdglkn]

So by that summation, anything I ever say about the US is wrong, right ?
....
And what does that get us ?
.....
That's how FM rolls, I guess.

I'm not sure what other metric we can use to decide if someone is knowledgeable on a subject or not, other than their past postings on the same subject.

If you're not an expert then you're always going to get into trouble telling people how things work rather than discussing in a conversational way.

[ZX3URrBH]

I'm not sure what other metric we can use to decide if someone is knowledgeable on a subject or not

How about their latest post on the current subject ? Is that a good enough metric ?

[Scfdglkn]

How about their latest post on the current subject ? Is that a good enough metric ?

Well not really. How can you extrapolate a meaningful deduction from a single post?

[ZX3URrBH]

Well not really. How can you extrapolate a meaningful deduction from a single post?

**** off.

[r5YOPDyk]

So I'm moving to an actual city. Not a wannabe city like I used to live in. I'm moving to Indianapolis for work.

I'm used to crime being a domestic disturbance because a woman forgot to grab a beer from the fridge or walked in front of the T.V. while Nascar was on. Burglaries don't happen, nobody messes with your stuff, and your children are safe outside.

I don't like long drives to work. Currently my house is about 2 miles from where I work. The problem with Indy is that my employer is on the east side which has steadily gone down hill and is now somewhat ghetto. The first apartment I was looking at had 8 burglaries and 4 armed robberies in the past 6 months.

What should I be looking for as far as crime goes? I realize I'm not going to find anything close to what I have out here in the country, not even in a gated community. At what level should I consider an area to be relatively safe as far as cities go?

It's making apartment hunting kind of hard, especially since I want a short commute but the closer I get the more ghetto things become. Apartments that sound great at first turn out to have a decent amount of crime in the area.

None of the apartments seem to be too expensive, but I'm somewhat miserly and would prefer to spend the minimum amount necessary. Why pay $800 when I could pay $600... that's a new kindle fire every month! It's hard finding the right balance of rent+utils/safety/distance.

Do you have to move?

I think you're WAY better off where you are now. Way better lifestyle for your kids to grow up in. Your children can grow up with aspirations of the city.

[CIAFreeAgent]

Two things make your claim null and void.

Most gun violence occurs in inner city ghetto's, as someone else stated, this has been declining for a while now, as are other types of violent crime.

Secondly, and most importantly, the majority of people in this country have decided that the potential risks are outweighed by the benefit of having the option to own and enjoy firearms.

Collectively most of us think that it's worthwhile to have the liberty, so using other cultures that are far more restrictive with much more governmental oversight in day-to-day life for comparison is like comparing tree's to oranges.

So basically, mind your own business.

Also, stating a fact is not a personal attack, you have posted things previously that show you do not understand the culture here and are not in possession of the facts on this topic. /end of