[radicalvolume]

How is it placed on the back of the fork without "shoveling" it? Do you spear it with a knife? Do you only eat foods that can be picked up by jabbing with a fork? What about snow peas or rice? Spinach? Flat or leafy veggies that do not lend well to poking or scooping?

Some interesting info:

http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch...ons/index.html

http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch...behaviour.html

[yazetaw]

If you put your knife down, you can turn your fork over. It's correct to change hands when you do this, too, so if you are right handed you would switch and eat with the fork in your right hand I also find it ironic that it is considered polite to "squash" your peas onto your fork. I would find that rather childish.....

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/water

Water.

Look at the pronunciation symbols at the bottom.

So fab, tell me, what English dialect has Water being pronounced as Wood-er?

As for Chinese being a world language, I don't know. It is not easily adaptable to teh information age (since typesets and other things are not condusive to an individual word based linguistic system). I think that is the only big thing holding it back.

I am not saying that I do not think it will be, but I am wondering if is can jump that hurdle to make it so everyone speaks Mandarin (not Cantonese or any other dialect)....

[Anykeylo]

I also find it ironic that it is considered polite to "squash" your peas onto your fork. I would find that rather childish.....

Anymore "childish" than mashed potatoes? We have a delicacy here called "mushy peas", wouldn't touch it myself but it's a favourite dish up North.

[VQdeochratis]

Anymore "childish" than mashed potatoes? We have a delicacy here called "mushy peas", wouldn't touch it myself but it's a favourite dish up North.

Depends on when you mash them.

My father (because of dentures) would mash his food on his plate in front of us. It was quite gross (he does it a bit less now with the dentures now screwed into his jawbone).

I am not saying that mashed peas, in and of themselves, are gross, but mashing them ONTO a fork seems rather gauche.

I guess every culture has their own idiosyncracies. Trick is, trying to observe what you can while around others so that nobody is grossed out/offended. Other trick is to let go a bit yourself so that YOU (third person, or is this second person...?) do not take an elbow on the table so seriously.

[penpizdes]

Cultural differences (and other wild, sweeping generalizations)

Better in the UK (for me):
- people apologize even if YOU bump into THEM
- people don’t take themselves, their little foibles, their place of employment, their flag, their town etc., etc. so damn seriously
- people have a deep respect for history
- London can do full-on lux better than anywhere else

Better in the US (again…for me):
- people aren’t afraid to talk to relative strangers and be friendly
- people have a great sense of optimism and possibility
- small-town civic mindedness without stultifying conformism
- NYC can do “out there” better than anywhere else

and since I can’t leave my own country out…

Better in Italy (ditto):
- people have a very strong sense of familial duty
- people show an innate sense of and respect for quality in all things
- people are able to love their country deeply without having to believe that everyone else’s is sh!t
- Rome can do a perfect day in spring better than anywhere else

[newwebstar]

"London can do full-on lux better than anywhere else"

Could you explain this further? I'm interested to hear your reasons.

IMHO no one does that better than Paris.

And the Italian version of full-luxe is wonderful also. Perhaps it is more essential and "tasteful" than the French.

I love the chic-nonchalance of the luxe shopping streets in Rome and Milan. The discrete luxe of Torino.

In any case, I think the sensuality required is with the French and Italians... not with the Anglos.

( BTW: no one does full-out pomp like the Vatican... tops the British crown.)

[chuviskkk]

in the UK services is much the same as anywhere else, but luxury can be pretty over the top BUT without any decadent garishness, which puts it into another level itself. For example for a discreet tip of £5 (read: entry fee) ladies who lunch can use the poshest loos about, complete with glass of champagne, solid gold, marble and more gold fittings, perfumes on tap and unique-in-the-world soaps blah blah blah. The thing is a homeless woman could walk in and the height of discretion would still be used, she would not be treated any different (provided she paid). Thats the difference. the height of manners is, conceivably is if noone knows the manners, then you should copy them. That I think is the true meaning of the word, if someone walking in on a dinner eats with his hands, you should, according to the books, put down you knives and forks and eat with your hands too so they are not embarrassed. (of course thsi doesnt happen but you catch the drift).

Ive had the opportunity to attend some royal dinners and garden parties believe it or not (as an employee), and what they put on is pretty amazing so far as the Royal Household budget allows without drawing criticism.

Each of the thousands of guests are given $120 Xmas puddings, and personally handed over, by the Queen, a silver Xmas present too (this year it was champagne flutes and a silver tray). They are then treated to a party within the palatial settings, complete with entertainers (from Victorian jugglers to fire breathers to human works of art), royal brass bands or orchestras, $200 million paintings on the walls, fine food, aged wines and champagnes and every alcoholic beverage on tap with waiters constantly filling your glasses. The plates you eat off at some events took 7 master craftsmen to make, are 300 years old and valued at $40,000 a piece, the mosaic table in the corner took 23 years to make, the flower displays (that employ an entire department) are checked by the Queen, and needless to say the food is superlative -these details without shouting it out and you'd barely notice.

Dress code is tux and ballgowns, or national dress whether it be a single lion skin, a raffia wrap or a kimono. At some stage the Royal family come in and do the meet and greet with the crowd, then retire along with marching, kilted bagpipe players from Royal Scotland. At some stage women turn up (rather like a royal version of the shots cowgirls) with endless trays of shots and the mood visibly ups an ante, the floor is cleared and -get this- becomes a dancefloor with tuxedoed DJ and pretty much a minor sound and light show. I never thought Id go disco pogo within a palace, but I did.

The thing is these guests are merely employees, not guests of State (where its even more lavish,- but definitely no disco) or ambassadors -whether they be toilet cleaners or ticket sellers (moi), and yep, along with the free flow of alcohol people pass out and let their hair down just like any party. People vomit, they even get into arguments, get carried out on stretchers you name it, yet the staff and even the Royals if ever present ( I know personally of one woman's claim to fame being she was passed out in the corner of the room while the Queen was doing her mingling) are the height of discretion and politeness throughout. Noone is told off or looked down upon, security as absolutely invisible. That I think is the difference. You could do the same event in many places round the world but people would be dragged out all the time.

..except maybe Tokyo. a nondescript piece of sushi, beautifully presented, can be the work of 45 years experience from the 'cooks' in merely washing, cutting, presenting.

[htDgExh8]

I'll try to explain myself, though I think Zupertmaus did a darn good job.

These days, at least, if you're talking lux (and that may very well not be the same thing as style...) then anywhere/everywhere you will have top-top-top notch things / drink / clothes / food.

The difference, therefore, is in the setting and the service. London can do a whole big street / palace of just such polished/trimmed (in the lux sense) appearance that I've seen anywhere else. Also, while day-to-day service in London is o-so, the only other place where they can do 18th-century-style service in my experience is Vienna, but the town itself is just that little bit scruffier (relatively speaking) and a lot poorer.

London has: many urban settings of all pre WW2 buildings nicely maintained and scrubbed / beautifully maintained greenery / traditions+livery+pomp / a large number of obscenely wealthy punters and an obscene number of merely wealthy ones / an unbelievable number of businessmen / pros catering to it all.

Lots of other places have some of these elements, but none all these to
the same extent. Paris and NYC can do lux VERY well. Just not as consistently well as London, IMHO.

[WeestDype]

Well yes I agree if you are talking about where luxury is most ubiquitous.

I interpreted "does full-on lux best" as whose VERSION of luxe is best. And for that my taste is with France or Italy.

Clothing, food, homes, autos, production of fine things, craftsmanship, taste, etc.

----

One thing that I love about Tuscany is that you can go to the most out-of-the-way places, non-tourist places and find the best restaurant, the best pastry shop, coffee bar, baker, clothing store, great butcher, modern design furniture store etc. A level of sophistication for nice things among simple people that is very high. Nice things, craftsmanship and good design is important to them.

I'm happy to hear that the Royals give such great parties though.


----

[luffyplayaz]

Hang on, if you're talking about quality of life / production for the masses then, yes, Italy is absolutely tops. I think that is a point many proponents of non-culianry-culture world cities like NYC, London, etc. find hard to wrap their head around... The fact that while the top 5% of restuarants there may be world class, the average is still...Sbarro... Converely, in Italy, France and (to a lessere extent) Spain, the chunky middle of the distribution is just so high quality./

[GogaMegaPis]

The average in NYC is CERTAINLY not Sbarro Luca.

Nor is it Cali Pizza, The Olive Garden, TGIF, Applebees or any other chain.

That would be the avearge amongst people who are not familiar with the city and go to whatever they are familiar with. Many a time I have told people not to go to Subway (eat sh*t [/company song]) they still go, but does that represent the Italian and Jewish delis still here in the city?

It is one thing I notice very strongly when driving through the suburbs is the paucity of original eateries that are worth more than the $5.99 chinese lunch special. It is really a shame. There are some, but they are hard to find and gradually losing to the two divergent fronts, mass commercialized "everyday" eateried (from Red Lobster to the Outback) to the posh eateries like Mt Fugi where most diners will run you $100 a head (and no, that is not THE most posh, it is just an example).

All the working class small eateries that you can find in places like Italy are very hard to find the furtehr you get out of the city, and they are, sadly, not too easily found in the city either.

So I do not think it is the Lux or Pomp, but definitely the working class quality eatery that is what is missing here, and in decent supply in Italy.

[annouhMus]

Every week it seems I notice another one of those quality, individual places
dissappear and a chain taking over. Working class people depend almost on entirely on chain food now in many neighborhoods.

In five years Manhattan will be virtually indistinguishable from the American suburbs in terms of the offerings.

Yes, there will be the odd shop surviving on some sidestreet somewhere but overwhelmingly the city is becoming a study in repetition. The walks to find those quality places are becoming longer and more inconvenient.

In the past 2 years I have been cooking more than I ever did in all my years of living in New York. Not because I like cooking, but because it is the only way to get quality anymore without spending a fortune on food or getting on a train.

I remember when Subway sandwich shops first started appearing, the quality wasn't bad... but since they've built their virtual monopoly on many streets, quality has plummeted and prices have risen. Now, the people working in there just throw the sandwiches together like dog food. They all suck.

[BoBoMasterDesign]

it is the only way to get quality anymore without spending a fortune That's my point too. You can get quality, but akin to Little Italy becoming Micro Italy (tourist), it is hard to find that smaller shop that will get you a good dinner for less than $20 a head.

You can still find Indian/turkish/pakistani food, and a good deal of Chinatown Asian for little cash, but even they are starting to move up, and unfortunately out.

I am not looking for a dive where the roaches add "character" and an occasional crunchy bit in your salad, but since when is Dominos considered good enough to serve pizza in Manhattan? It just is not right.

[Duaceanceksm]

Ninja and MT Guy. I don’t think we essentially disagree that strongly.

I’ll give a couple of examples. The last time I was in NYC (too logn ago, 2005… I ate a Babbo, among other places. Superb, but hardly the average NYC eatery and not something my wallet or waistline could afford for each single meal. A tourist will often find all the “wrong” places. But whenever I ate at some ‘normal’ local eatery, be it a basic diner for breakfast, or a Latin-American place for a quick lunch, I was not very impressed. London, which I know much, much better, can be the same. I would say that in London (and would guess in NYC, but it’s a guess), I would find sub-5% of eating establishments ‘good’ to ‘excellent’, about 10-15% ‘ok’ and the rest from ‘poor’ tom ‘abysmal’.

We Italians are picky about food, though. Even ethnic food once they’ve been exposed to the proper stuff (think about the difference between a good, authentic Mexican restaurant and your basic Tex-Mex place… yeech!).

I’ll tell where I was direly disappointed in the food. Miami. Jeez, really, really bad (again, on average. There are good places but $$$$. The ‘everyday’ places were just dire. I’ve had better breakfasts at Denny’s…).

[replicamuse]

What is ashame in the US is eating on the road. Once you are out of the big cities it is a disaster.

I visit my brother in the States. I go to a diner type place on a highway for an American breakfast.

It is a farming area. Pure country-side. And rather wealthy.

Breakfast? Scrambled eggs, that I later found out are from a pre-prepared egg-liquid, sold in cartons to the food "industry". Milk, in those little plastic containers. Butter (?), in those little plastic containers. Jam, in those little plastic containers. Sausages that tasted like nothing. Coffee that tasted like nothing. Orange juice from a carton. Toast from slices of pre-sliced bread.

Fine, I guess, if you are an astronaut, but otherwise it is absolute poverty.

Of course there is no surprise here. And this is just one example. Certainly, I know what to expect and I don't even think about it or complain. But it is amazing: in the country-side, one would expect a simple diner to showcase the area's produce etc. But no... there is simply no desire, no pride, no understanding of the pleasure.

Surely good, simple, eating places exist and I have sampled them, but most of the offerings on the road are like the above.

[Nikkkola]

Fabrizio, sadly your breakfast experience would be considered 'good eating' by many in the US. Quality in food has gone to the pits in favor of ease and quickness of preparation in households and in restaurant establishments

[Abaronos]

... eating on the road ... is a disaster ...

Fine, I guess, if you are an astronaut ...

Thank you for that ^

After reading the "White House" thread I needed a good laugh

[DJElizardo]

Fab, GQ, the difference would probably be in this.

Almost EVERYBODY in the US can get that level of food now.

That same mediocre quality (all made as close to the minimum possible quality w/o getting below it) foodstuff is the very thing that made it so our bottom line does not get stuck eating potatoes, cabbage, rice and beans.

Unfortunately, that cost and mass production, combined with free market, capitalism, and cultural ignorance has driven out most of our diversity into the upper echelon of both quality and price.

Finding a good cheap Italian place in NYC, and surrounding areas, used to be easy. But with the influx of ignorant suburbanites that think that the Olive Garden is somehow Italian because they serve pasta and have vaguely Brooklyn sounding people on their commercials, these places have been pushed out, in almost a Wal-Mart fashion, to the "eclectic" genres of food consumption.

I think that that may be the key to the loss of our diversity, is the infamous melting pot. Our ease of travel from one area to another, our lack of social identity. When you homogenize a bunch of different ingredients together, sometimes all you end up with is Mayonnaise.

Europe may have had an advantage with being, although smaller, harder to mix when they were setting down roots. Greece was not an immigrant nation with a bunch of people moving in from all over eventually trying to fit in with the natives. It had its own nationality and pride and worked to keep it.

I think this initial rooting has made some food genres more well defined and resolute than what they are in the states.


One final thing. Look at what kids eat. I have seen so many tots running around who will only eat hot-dog slices, cheerios, and chicken fingers. I know that is what you start them off on, and gradually expose them to more tastes and flavors, but I think this is a pretty good reflection of what humans are like in general. We will stay with what we know, and what we are comfortable unless we are exposed and "broadened" to other tastes.

If not, we get our over-sugared sodas and pasta sauces, over salted chips and soups, and overly fatty entrées and sides at our restaurants. Hell, we even have a huge market for overly-caffeinated piss-water!

Exposing kids to different foods that are not readily available is hard, harder if the PARENTS have never really been exposed to it. These kids are very difficult to open up once they become adults. They are familiar with their Domino's, Red Lobsters, Denny's. They then move into areas like NYC, and the free market follows them.

It is a shame, but without another immigration wave (I know we have had some, but not akin to the Ellis Island days), I am afraid that the US, in general, is Mayonnaise.

[Pynctyncroast]

Fab, GQ, the difference would probably be in this.
Almost EVERYBODY in the US can get that level of food now.

I may be misinterpreting your statement; if so, ignore my rejoinder.

One of the retorts to the accusation of excessive industrialization/ commodification of culinary experience (and others as well…) in the US is often that this makes it much more affordable and therefore egalitarian. “It’s all very well jabbering on about Pain Poilane but who can afford that stuff, etc.”

But that’s specious.
It is not the case that Italian and French working class people go without food due to higher food standards. They may consume fewer pounds of (hyper-processed, hormone-injected, water-bloated) ground beef. But that’s not a bad thing. I submit to you that there is almost no one (other than seriously dysfunctional folk) who, in the US or Europe cannot “afford” 2/2.5K of calories a day, even with relatively decent fresh produce. Other things may be out of their reach, but not that.

[Candykiss]

Close Luca, but not quite what I was saying.

I believe that a slightly higher standard is more widely available. You CAN get lobster even if you are less fortunate (it just is not very GOOD lobster).

Our poor have the dubious priveledge of having the "best" cheap food available. The poor mans sirloin rather than a well done brassiole......