[VemyhemiHef]

What's shocking to me is the actual penalty, I was expecting a 10 place grid drop at most, but last place is just ridiculous.

And as for the tyres, all the good drivers seem to still make them work, and obviously Alonso doesn't have a problem, even with his dog of a Ferrari that he still manages to get results with! (Looking like less of a dog now though since the updates!)

[Mehntswx]

But lets be honest with ourselves here, its McLarens fault this time. With Hamiltons paces theres just no reason to under fuel, such an unecessary risk. Im quite annoyed about this cause i was expecting him to win tomorrow...unlikely now.

Thing is, i hope this ends the whole stopping at the end of the race trend as well, that stuff really annoys me, all cars should be able to make it back to the pits on their own steam otherwise there should be a penalty. How is it fair that some guys can take a risk of underfueling and then just stop at the end of the race and other who are trying to follow the rules are loosing out.

[scewLacysmazy]

Ironic, the rule about qualifying & returning to pits with enough fuel for sample was actually changed due incident just like this with Hamilton & McLaren in 2010
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/moto...ne/8737077.stm

[avappyboalt]

Bit irritating how both Vettel and Schumi didn't set times, so have their secured positions and free pick on tyres, whilst Hamilton has no new softs, and for running and putting on a bloody good show he gets a massive penalty...

[TypeTeasiaDer]

The penalty does seem rather harsh, but at the end of the day McLaren ****ed up again.

The rule applies to the whole weekend too, which begs the question why drivers can pull over right at the end of the race just as they cross the line like both Rosberg and Vettel did recently if I recall correctly... and not get penalized? After all they didn't make it back to the pits properly, you MUST get it back to the pits and that doesn't mean parking up at the end of the pit lane after you cross the line.

By telling their drivers to stop, they have basically admitted their cars can't make it back to the pits under their own power and still provide the sufficient fuel sample as required by the RULES.

Don't recall either of them starting the next race at the back of the grid.

Just the usual FIA clarity BS anyway. Still be a fun race to watch now at least.

[nikolapegayyyaasss]

That's pretty harsh. But given they changed the rules because of what McLaren did in the past, perhaps they have had previous warnings? Surely he should have been disqualified from only Q3 though.

Anyway now I'm pissed because I was going to put money on the Lotus-Renault boys to win, I was just waiting for the odds to blow out after qual. Now they are pretty low.

I wonder if that guy they mentioned during qual who tweeted about putting money on Maldonado for pole at 200-1 odds got his money then? Maybe it was one of the stewards?

It also answers the question about where the stewards get a fuel sample from, no catch can then.

[illiderob]

The penalty does seem rather harsh, but at the end of the day McLaren ****ed up again.

The rule applies to the whole weekend too, which begs the question why drivers can pull over right at the end of the race just as they cross the line like both Rosberg and Vettel did recently if I recall correctly... and not get penalized? After all they didn't make it back to the pits properly, you MUST get it back to the pits and that doesn't mean parking up at the end of the pit lane after you cross the line.

By telling their drivers to stop, they have basically admitted their cars can't make it back to the pits under their own power and still provide the sufficient fuel sample as required by the RULES.

Don't recall either of them starting the next race at the back of the grid.

Just the usual FIA clarity BS anyway. Still be a fun race to watch now at least.

Is it specified somewhere it's for whole weekend? And anyway, if the finnish news article is correct, the problem wasn't so much stopping after the lap, but having so little fuel that you couldn't drive to pits and have enough for sample.
So they probably have estimated how much 1 lap takes fuel, and if the car has that + 1l for sample, they let it go

[itititit]

Is it specified somewhere it's for whole weekend? And anyway, if the finnish news article is correct, the problem wasn't so much stopping after the lap, but having so little fuel that you couldn't drive to pits and have enough for sample.
So they probably have estimated how much 1 lap takes fuel, and if the car has that + 1l for sample, they let it go

Rather than have all this speculation, why not just go to the actual regulations?
[quote]

6.6 Fuel draining and sampling :
6.6.1 Competitors must provide a means of removing all fuel from the car.
6.6.2 Competitors must ensure that a one litre sample of fuel may be taken from the car at any time during the Event.
Except in cases of force majeure (accepted as such by the stewards of the meeting), if a sample of fuel is required after a practice session the car concerned must have first been driven back to the pits under its own power.
6.6.3 All cars must be fitted with a –2 'Symetrics' male fitting in order to facilitate fuel sampling. If an electric pump on board the car cannot be used to remove the fuel an externally connected one may be used provided it is evident that a representative fuel sample is being taken. If an external pump is used it must be possible to connect the FIA sampling hose to it and any hose between the car and pump must be -3 in diameter and not exceed 2m in length. Details of the fuel sampling hose may be found in the Appendix to these regulations.
6.6.4 The sampling procedure must not necessitate starting the engine or the removal of bodywork (other than the cover over any refuelling connector).
[\quote]

source - http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/13C06BF289E0E36FC12579C9003CB5B9/$FILE/1-2012%20TECHNICAL%20REGULATIONS%2009-03-2012.pdf

The appendix referred to says
Article 19.8.1
Fuel samples will be taken and handled in the following way :
At any time during an Event a fuel sample can be taken from a car, a fuel drum or from a fuel rig by
the FIA. A representative of the team should be present during sampling.
SAMPLING
When sampling from a car or a fuel rig the fuel is sampled with the fuel sampling hose mentioned in
Article 6.6.3 of the 2009 FIA Formula One Technical Regulations. This comprises a tube approximately
2000 mm long x 4.6 mm internal diameter with a “‐2” female snap fit connector at one end and a
valve at the other end attached to ca. 200 mm of 4.6 mm internal diameter stainless steel tubing.
Fuel drums are sampled by siphoning using approximately 1500 mm of rubber fuel piping.
Before sampling the sampling hose is flushed with the fuel to be sampled using a volume of fuel
approximately equal to three times the volume of the hose. The fuel is then sampled sequentially
into three tinplate cans. Therefore at least one litre of fuel has to be on board a car at any time
during the Event. The tinplate cans should be filled to at least 85 % of their total volume with fuel.
During the sampling the fuel temperature may be measured. A fire extinguisher should be present.
LABELLING
After sampling all three cans are labelled and sealed with a numbered seal. On the label the
following is recorded: the Event, date, team, car number, seal number, team representative including
signature and FIA delegate including signature.
SAMPLES
One sample remains with the team, two samples remain with the FIA. One of these two FIA samples
is used for the “Track‐side” analysis. The other is kept refrigerated and used in the case of a dispute. source - http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/BED822D8DE2A9311C125797B0035300E/$FILE/1-2012%20APPENDIX%2007-12-2011.pdf

I may have missed some other regulation but, from that, I take it that it's OK to stop except for practice when something actually prevents the vehicle returning to the pits, as there is no mention about the car having to return to the pit under it's own power in qualifying, or the race, before providing the sample?
I think McLaren were screwed, partly their own fault if they protested using the wrong, IMO, part of the regulations!
If that's correct, Lewis could legally stop on track but would still need to have the 1 litre of fuel available for the sample - anyone got the specific details of the penalty? Even if he didn't have the fuel, I would have expected him to be put to the end of that qualifying segment but it it's deemed that it is the full qualifying session that is in question, failure to provide the required sample would mean it was null and void and he'd be put to the back and, just to make it interesting, if the qualifying wasn't regarded as being legally completed, he may need the steward's clearance to start?

F1.com has
"Note - Hamilton originally qualified on pole, but was excluded for failing to return to the pits under his own power and supply a fuel sample. Karthikeyan failed to meet the 107% requirement so races at the stewards' discretion."
It also has
"McLaren’s Lewis Hamilton has lost his pole position for Sunday’s Spanish race after the stewards found his car did not have sufficient fuel onboard to comply with the rules on its return to parc ferme.

As a result of the decision, Williams’ Pastor Maldonado inherits pole for the Barcelona round, whilst Hamilton - excluded from the qualifying results - will start from the back of the grid.

The Briton stopped out on track at the end of Q3, after being told over his radio to pull over at the side of the circuit. There wasn’t enough fuel in his MP4-27 to enable it to return under its own power to the pits and for the team to provide a one-litre fuel sample in post-qualifying scrutineering, as required by the sport’s technical regulations.

After a lengthy discussion, the FIA stewards rejected McLaren’s case - put forward by team representative Sam Michael - that the car had stopped out on track due to reasons of ‘force majeure’.

"A team member had put an insufficient quantity of fuel into the car, thereby resulting in the car having to be stopped on the circuit in order to be able to provide the required amount for sampling purposes,” explained the FIA in a statement. “As the amount of fuel put into the car is under the complete control of the competitor, the stewards cannot accept this as a case of force majeure.

"The Stewards determine that this is a breach of Article 6.6.2 of the FIA Formula One Technical Regulations and the Competitor is accordingly excluded from the results of the Qualifying Session. The Competitor is however allowed to start the race from the back of the grid."

I would say the Stewards got it wrong for the initial disqualification but called it correctly regarding the 'force majeure' protest - bit of a SNAFU all round, I'd say

[vvxtiopmx]

What I don't understand is why he wasn't just disqualified from Q3. He successfully completed Q2 without breaking the rules so surely he should just go to p10 at the most.

[kictainiSot]

I guess it's because they couldn't provide a fuel sample, so how do the stewards know if he completed Q1 and Q2 with the correct fuel. It's up to McLaren to prove he was using the correct fuel, and they couldn't.

Also looking at the regs am I right in thinking you don't need to have sufficient fuel to return to the pits and also have a 1 litre sample, you just need to stop before you burn into that last litre of fuel.

I just noticed it is Sam Michael who is in charge of this area in McLaren. No surprise at this stuff up then, he ruined Williams, now that he is gone they are on the comeback! Aussie or not I can't see how he is given such opportunities. I'm sure Mark Webber will never want him in his team again

[RogHammon]

This is the problem, even reading the rules it isn't that clear. But by them asking him to stop on track the car should still have enough fuel in the tank surely, that's why they asked him to stop after all?

I also don't understand why isn't then properly enforced the day they actually give out world championship points, trophy's and champagne.

[replicamuse]

I guess it's because they couldn't provide a fuel sample, so how do the stewards know if he completed Q1 and Q2 with the correct fuel. It's up to McLaren to prove he was using the correct fuel, and they couldn't.

Also looking at the regs am I right in thinking you don't need to have sufficient fuel to return to the pits and also have a 1 litre sample, you just need to stop before you burn into that last litre of fuel.

I just noticed it is Sam Michael who is in charge of this area in McLaren. No surprise at this stuff up then, he ruined Williams, now that he is gone they are on the comeback! Aussie or not I can't see how he is given such opportunities. I'm sure Mark Webber will never want him in his team again

This is wrong. The FIA extracted 1.3l of fuel out of the car. The reason they were penalised was because they tried to blame outside influences, when it was human error. The penalty was harsh, but that's the rule

[boxcigsnick]

Really? Okay I've got it wrong. So if they require 1L, why get in trouble for 1.3L? Is it because they do need to have enough fuel to get back to the pits and also have 1L remaining? I'm not wrong about Sam Michael though, if what you say is true and they stuffed up their defense (and the obvious problem in the first place, lack of fuel).

[xpllmr]

Really? Okay I've got it wrong. So if they require 1L, why get in trouble for 1.3L? Is it because they do need to have enough fuel to get back to the pits and also have 1L remaining? I'm not wrong about Sam Michael though, if what you say is true and they stuffed up their defense (and the obvious problem in the first place, lack of fuel).

Whitmarsh basically said that, because it is so difficult to gauge exactly how much fuel is in a car, they took the obvious step of stopping the car, in case they were too close to not obtaining enough. I don't know whether 300ml would have been enough to get back to the pits or no. What would you class as getting to the pits anyway?

[illignocearia]

What do you mean by

What would you class as getting to the pits anyway? Surely it's as simple as crossing the pit lane speed limit line without external help?

I've laid money on Grosjean to win. Reason being is he is on the clean line, and Kimi isn't. I would have gone with Kimi if it was the other way around. Fingers crossed now

[violalmina]

Dirty rumors going around (from twitter), saying that 4 McLaren employees have walked away, apparently due bad treatment from the team.
Whitmarsh apparently has denied the rumor, the twitter account who told about this has been suspended, which raises suspicions that it could be true, why bother suspending one false rumor spreading twitter account?

[phernikas]

Grosjean - Sh it

[HRS1H7gO]

This is wrong. The FIA extracted 1.3l of fuel out of the car. The reason they were penalised was because they tried to blame outside influences, when it was human error. The penalty was harsh, but that's the rule

But that appeal was a moot point - according to the FIA rules they didn't need to return to the pit area in qualifying (or the race), just the practice! The FIA were disregarding their own rules and the stewards need to be fired (unless there's another point I wasn't able to find in the FIA rules)!
So, there was no legitimate reason for an appeal or penalty for a false claim for 'force majeure'. If it was against the rules, the penalty would be fair, though.

Whatever, it's done now - or at least until the next time

[Gromiaaborn]

Awesome race so far btw!

[ENGINESSQ]

How many races can Lotus tactics really ruin

edit: Or is lotus right? Do Maldonado & Alonso have to stop once more?