The 1959 Challenge: modern clubs vs. antiques - DiscussWorldIssues - Socio-Economic Religion and Political Uncensored Debate

**forextradinginfo** · 08-13-2009, 07:09 PM

I know that lofts in irons have been jacked up, so I'm wondering why they didn't compare an old 36* or 48* iron with a new 36* or 48* (or whatever's closest) iron. Of course the newer clubs will hit the ball longer - newer clubs have longer shafts and less loft.

It would have been nice to compare shot dispersion as well.

Absolutely... you really can't draw any conclusions when you are comparing clubs with 4 or 5 degree differences in loft, an inch difference in length, and completely different shaft flex. They could have stamped a "9" on a 44° 8I back then and you'd have had the same loft as today's 9I.

**Peertantyb** · 11-08-2009, 06:55 PM

This is from the 50th Anniversary Edition of Golf magazine. They compared Paddy's clubs versus clubs from 1959. He was at a range at TPC Sawgrass. All shots were measured with a Trackman. They state he was hitting into a 10 to 15 mph wind. All shots were hit with modern balls, i.e. "multilayer construction wiht a urethane cover"

Drivers: Wilson Smooth, 9*, 45", extra stiff shaft vs. Persimmon, 7.5*, 43 3/8, regular flex shaft

Smooth
Club Speed = 112.8 mph
Ball Speed = 169.2 mph
Smash Factor = 1.50
Launch Angle = 12.1*
Spin Rate = 2,527
Maximum Height = 43.5 yards
Carry = 254.5 yards
Total Length = 265.3 yards

Persimmon
Club Speed = 105.4 mph
Ball Speed = 157.1 mph
Smash Factor = 1.49
Launch Angle = 11.5*
Spin Rate = 1,690
Maximum Height = 27.2 yards
Carry = 228.3 yards
Total Length = 259.4 yards

The 6 iron comparison

Wilson Staff Pi5, 31*, 37", Extra stiff flex
Wilson Dyna-Powered, 36*, 36.5", Regular flex

Pi5
Club Speed = 88.7 mph
Ball Speed = 127.2 mph
Smash Factor = 1.46
Launch Angle = 14.3*
Spin Rate = 5,463
Maximum Height = 35.8 yards
Carry = 166.1 yards
Total Length = 167.3 yards

Dyna-Powered
Club Speed = 84.2 mph
Ball Speed = 118.0 mph
Smash Factor = 1.40
Launch Angle = 17.1*
Spin Rate = 6,654
Maximum Height = 34.1 yards
Carry = 148.1 yards
Total Length = 148.1 yards

The 9 iron comparison

Wilson Staff Pi5, 44*, 36", Extra stiff flex
Wilson Dyna-Powered, 48*, 35", Regular flex

Pi5
Club Speed = 80.3 mph
Ball Speed = 106.0 mph
Smash Factor = 1.32
Launch Angle = 23.1*
Spin Rate = 8,084
Maximum Height = 34.8 yards
Carry = 122.8 yards
Total Length = 122.8 yards

Dyna-Powered
Club Speed = 75.0 mph
Ball Speed = 93.0 mph
Smash Factor = 1.24
Launch Angle = 25.6*
Spin Rate = 8,804
Maximum Height = 29.4 yards
Carry = 106.5 yards
Total Length = 107.5 yards

**Sanremogirl** · 11-08-2009, 07:33 PM

pretty interesting...

**Peertantyb** · 11-08-2009, 07:37 PM

One question I do have is why was he using regular flex in the older irons?

**Jwskwhdo** · 11-08-2009, 07:41 PM

It is interesting from the tour player perspective because they have very repeatable swings. However do these same tests with 10 handicap players and the results are drastically different. The OEM's have come a long with helping the average player get better with more forgiveness.

Also keep in mind that the modern ball is geared towards working with the modern club and vice versa.

**Sanremogirl** · 11-08-2009, 07:48 PM

It is interesting from the tour player perspective because they have very repeatable swings. However do these same tests with 10 handicap players and the results are drastically different. The OEM's have come a long with helping the average player get better with more forgiveness.

Also keep in mind that the modern ball is geared towards working with the modern club and vice versa.

Is the more forgiveness a good thing?With the old clubs if you didn't hit em you knew.You had to learn cause the forgiveness wasn't there.Don't get me wrong I'm all for the forgiveness aspect but didn't the old sticks force you into being a better ball striker?

**Caluabdum** · 11-08-2009, 07:49 PM

One question I do have is why was he using regular flex in the older irons?

Maybe thats all they had back then.

**Jwskwhdo** · 11-08-2009, 07:53 PM

Is the more forgiveness a good thing?With the old clubs if you didn't hit em you knew.You had to learn cause the forgiveness wasn't there.Don't get me wrong I'm all for the forgiveness aspect but didn't the old sticks force you into being a better ball striker?

it absolutely is a good thing. It brings more people to this great game and if you mishit the ball with newer irons, you still know it. The older irons forced top players to be a better ball striker. It also forced many to give up this great sport.

**evennyNiz** · 11-08-2009, 07:55 PM

I know that lofts in irons have been jacked up, so I'm wondering why they didn't compare an old 36* or 48* iron with a new 36* or 48* (or whatever's closest) iron. Of course the newer clubs will hit the ball longer - newer clubs have longer shafts and less loft.

It would have been nice to compare shot dispersion as well.

**excivaamome** · 11-08-2009, 08:55 PM

I know that lofts in irons have been jacked up, so I'm wondering why they didn't compare an old 36* or 48* iron with a new 36* or 48* (or whatever's closest) iron. Of course the newer clubs will hit the ball longer - newer clubs have longer shafts and less loft.

It would have been nice to compare shot dispersion as well.

Yes, I was thinking the same thing.

I'd also be interested to know what the numbers would have been if they'd conduct such a test using a c.1960 Balata ball with the new clubs and a modern ball with the old clubs.

It's an interesting exercise and I'm not denying either the results or the implications. But as everyone knows, statistical data can be made to support or disclaim just about anything so as always, a grain of salt is in order.

-JP

**evennyNiz** · 11-08-2009, 08:58 PM

Yes, I was thinking the same thing.

I'd also be interested to know what the numbers would have been if they'd conduct such a test using a c.1960 Balata ball with the new clubs and a modern ball with the old clubs.

It's an interesting exercise and I'm not denying either the results or the implications. But as everyone knows, statistical data can be made to support or disclaim just about anything so as always, a grain of salt is in order.

-JP

Yep, just like how the TM Burner irons are being touted as being so long. Faldo was used to give some credibility, but I'm sure he knows that a TM Burner 5-iron was yesterday's 4 iron.

**drgshmcm** · 12-09-2009, 07:53 AM

Just to throw in something interesting I occasionally put some old persimmon woody I found in an Edwin Watts in CA in the bag and will shock higher-handicap players when I hit it straight and pretty far too! Though in no way near as far or as consistent or with a draw like my ft-9. Plus even really, really pure and good shots still feel weird at impact, it almost kinda hurts in a way if that could explain it maybe?

08-13-2009, 07:09 PM	#1
forextradinginfo Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 331 Senior Member	I know that lofts in irons have been jacked up, so I'm wondering why they didn't compare an old 36* or 48* iron with a new 36* or 48* (or whatever's closest) iron. Of course the newer clubs will hit the ball longer - newer clubs have longer shafts and less loft. It would have been nice to compare shot dispersion as well. Absolutely... you really can't draw any conclusions when you are comparing clubs with 4 or 5 degree differences in loft, an inch difference in length, and completely different shaft flex. They could have stamped a "9" on a 44° 8I back then and you'd have had the same loft as today's 9I. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-08-2009, 06:55 PM	#2
Peertantyb Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 497 Senior Member	The 1959 Challenge: modern clubs vs. antiques This is from the 50th Anniversary Edition of Golf magazine. They compared Paddy's clubs versus clubs from 1959. He was at a range at TPC Sawgrass. All shots were measured with a Trackman. They state he was hitting into a 10 to 15 mph wind. All shots were hit with modern balls, i.e. "multilayer construction wiht a urethane cover" Drivers: Wilson Smooth, 9, 45", extra stiff shaft vs. Persimmon, 7.5, 43 3/8, regular flex shaft Smooth Club Speed = 112.8 mph Ball Speed = 169.2 mph Smash Factor = 1.50 Launch Angle = 12.1* Spin Rate = 2,527 Maximum Height = 43.5 yards Carry = 254.5 yards Total Length = 265.3 yards Persimmon Club Speed = 105.4 mph Ball Speed = 157.1 mph Smash Factor = 1.49 Launch Angle = 11.5* Spin Rate = 1,690 Maximum Height = 27.2 yards Carry = 228.3 yards Total Length = 259.4 yards The 6 iron comparison Wilson Staff Pi5, 31, 37", Extra stiff flex Wilson Dyna-Powered, 36, 36.5", Regular flex Pi5 Club Speed = 88.7 mph Ball Speed = 127.2 mph Smash Factor = 1.46 Launch Angle = 14.3* Spin Rate = 5,463 Maximum Height = 35.8 yards Carry = 166.1 yards Total Length = 167.3 yards Dyna-Powered Club Speed = 84.2 mph Ball Speed = 118.0 mph Smash Factor = 1.40 Launch Angle = 17.1* Spin Rate = 6,654 Maximum Height = 34.1 yards Carry = 148.1 yards Total Length = 148.1 yards The 9 iron comparison Wilson Staff Pi5, 44, 36", Extra stiff flex Wilson Dyna-Powered, 48, 35", Regular flex Pi5 Club Speed = 80.3 mph Ball Speed = 106.0 mph Smash Factor = 1.32 Launch Angle = 23.1* Spin Rate = 8,084 Maximum Height = 34.8 yards Carry = 122.8 yards Total Length = 122.8 yards Dyna-Powered Club Speed = 75.0 mph Ball Speed = 93.0 mph Smash Factor = 1.24 Launch Angle = 25.6* Spin Rate = 8,804 Maximum Height = 29.4 yards Carry = 106.5 yards Total Length = 107.5 yards Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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11-08-2009, 07:33 PM	#3
Sanremogirl Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 562 Senior Member	pretty interesting... Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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11-08-2009, 07:37 PM	#4
Peertantyb Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 497 Senior Member	One question I do have is why was he using regular flex in the older irons? Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-08-2009, 07:41 PM	#5
Jwskwhdo Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 487 Senior Member	It is interesting from the tour player perspective because they have very repeatable swings. However do these same tests with 10 handicap players and the results are drastically different. The OEM's have come a long with helping the average player get better with more forgiveness. Also keep in mind that the modern ball is geared towards working with the modern club and vice versa. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-08-2009, 07:48 PM	#6
Sanremogirl Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 562 Senior Member	It is interesting from the tour player perspective because they have very repeatable swings. However do these same tests with 10 handicap players and the results are drastically different. The OEM's have come a long with helping the average player get better with more forgiveness. Also keep in mind that the modern ball is geared towards working with the modern club and vice versa. Is the more forgiveness a good thing?With the old clubs if you didn't hit em you knew.You had to learn cause the forgiveness wasn't there.Don't get me wrong I'm all for the forgiveness aspect but didn't the old sticks force you into being a better ball striker? Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-08-2009, 07:49 PM	#7
Caluabdum Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 523 Senior Member	One question I do have is why was he using regular flex in the older irons? Maybe thats all they had back then. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-08-2009, 07:53 PM	#8
Jwskwhdo Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 487 Senior Member	Is the more forgiveness a good thing?With the old clubs if you didn't hit em you knew.You had to learn cause the forgiveness wasn't there.Don't get me wrong I'm all for the forgiveness aspect but didn't the old sticks force you into being a better ball striker? it absolutely is a good thing. It brings more people to this great game and if you mishit the ball with newer irons, you still know it. The older irons forced top players to be a better ball striker. It also forced many to give up this great sport. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-08-2009, 07:55 PM	#9
evennyNiz Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 548 Senior Member	I know that lofts in irons have been jacked up, so I'm wondering why they didn't compare an old 36* or 48* iron with a new 36* or 48* (or whatever's closest) iron. Of course the newer clubs will hit the ball longer - newer clubs have longer shafts and less loft. It would have been nice to compare shot dispersion as well. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-08-2009, 08:55 PM	#10
excivaamome Join Date Nov 2005 Posts 381 Senior Member	I know that lofts in irons have been jacked up, so I'm wondering why they didn't compare an old 36* or 48* iron with a new 36* or 48* (or whatever's closest) iron. Of course the newer clubs will hit the ball longer - newer clubs have longer shafts and less loft. It would have been nice to compare shot dispersion as well. Yes, I was thinking the same thing. I'd also be interested to know what the numbers would have been if they'd conduct such a test using a c.1960 Balata ball with the new clubs and a modern ball with the old clubs. It's an interesting exercise and I'm not denying either the results or the implications. But as everyone knows, statistical data can be made to support or disclaim just about anything so as always, a grain of salt is in order. -JP Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-08-2009, 08:58 PM	#11
evennyNiz Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 548 Senior Member	Yes, I was thinking the same thing. I'd also be interested to know what the numbers would have been if they'd conduct such a test using a c.1960 Balata ball with the new clubs and a modern ball with the old clubs. It's an interesting exercise and I'm not denying either the results or the implications. But as everyone knows, statistical data can be made to support or disclaim just about anything so as always, a grain of salt is in order. -JP Yep, just like how the TM Burner irons are being touted as being so long. Faldo was used to give some credibility, but I'm sure he knows that a TM Burner 5-iron was yesterday's 4 iron. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

12-09-2009, 07:53 AM	#12
drgshmcm Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 403 Senior Member	Just to throw in something interesting I occasionally put some old persimmon woody I found in an Edwin Watts in CA in the bag and will shock higher-handicap players when I hit it straight and pretty far too! Though in no way near as far or as consistent or with a draw like my ft-9. Plus even really, really pure and good shots still feel weird at impact, it almost kinda hurts in a way if that could explain it maybe? Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

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