[BundEnhamma]

As-salamu alaykum.

The topic of this thread is related to the topic of this thread that I previously created.

I have long been encountering people who say what I put in the thread title about other Muslims within the community. This most frequently comes up when a marriage proposal is made from a younger Muslim or, most often, a Muslim born in the USA. When whether or not the proposal should be accepted is discussed, I have very, very often heard "I've known him to be a sincere, pious Muslim, but he doesn't act like someone from (insert any Muslim-majority country)." Other times, I hear parents scolding their children in a similar manner, telling them that "It's not just all about Islam," or "You can't just act however you want as long as you're following Islam."

Do statements like these and the attitudes they reflect not make extremely dangerous implications? If people have the attitude that "just" following Islam will make someone insufficient, is this not a tremendous problem? Why is that we teach and value culture almost as much, if not moreso, than we do Islam, at least among many Muslims? Why is that parents view a children's rejection of un-Islamic cultural practices as a rejection of Islam itself? How many parents reprimand and punish their children over the adoption of cultural practices and barely even give their children a push in the direction of increasing their practice of Islam? Did our Prophet (peace be upon him) not warn us not to develop these attitudes?

All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black, nor a black has any superiority over a white- except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood.

This approach to Islam that many Muslims take that involves "balancing" culture and Islam is not Islamic at all. There is no balance to be had, Islam is to take complete and total precedence in all matters; the world "Muslim" means "one who submits his will to God." (Before people jump in with this, in no way am I saying that cultural practices that fall in line with Islam should be done away with; however, imposing them or promoting them with a remotely comparable degree of importance as Islam should never happen)

What are your thoughts on this issue? What have your experiences been?

JazakAllahu Khayran for all of your responses.

[MarlboroCig]

The older generations are stuck in their ways...too old to change...their Islam is based on their culture...all you can do is tolerate them and let them have their say, but politely do what you think is right. It is a shame because the older generations should be wise and they should be able to guide the young...I have found them to be mostly lacking in wisdom.

[Kdgjhytiy]

Slightly off topic. The other side of the coin is the prospective husband had the model looks, very handsome, tall, big house, nice car, high salary in a good job, good sense of humour, chatty, confident, extrovert but his Deen is weak, isn't practising, knowledge is limited, etc. But we'll marry him to our daughter anyhow.

[streMunford]

The older generations are stuck in their ways...too old to change...their Islam is based on their culture...all you can do is tolerate them and let them have their say, but politely do what you think is right. It is a shame because the older generations should be wise and they should be able to guide the young...I have found them to be mostly lacking in wisdom.

We must always respect our elders for showing us any amount of Islam, and pray that Allah rewards them for it infinitely. Having said that, the clash that occurs between children and parents when parents equate culture with Islam often proves to be extremely damaging to everyone. Muslim children often become disinterested in increasing their practice of Islam or stop practicing it altogether, unfortunately. I have seen the same thing happen to reverts/converts when they enter a Muslim community with a thick, cultural atmosphere rather than a purely Islamic one.

Slightly off topic. The other side of the coin is the prospective husband had the model looks, very handsome, tall, big house, nice car, high salary in a good job, good sense of humour, chatty, confident, extrovert but his Deen is weak, isn't practising, knowledge is limited, etc. But we'll marry him to our daughter anyhow.

Yes, I see this occur often as well. Currently, I know a few young male Muslims who are descended from a Muslim-majority country but were born and raised in the USA. They are very well-liked within the community and Masha'Allah, I've seen nothing but good practice of Islam from them and a constant striving to improve; many times, immediately upon being informed that something is un-Islamic that they were not aware of, I've seen them immediately abandon the practice. Yet, nobody within the community considers these three young men for their daughters because they "don't know anything about the customs and cultures of their parents, they have no identity outside of being Muslim."

The current state of affairs among many Muslims is extremely sad, and I feel more attention needs to be brought to the issue of Islam vs. culture.

[Retapleapse]

I think some of the older generation when you speak to them about things such as marrying out of race etc i know deep down they know there shouldn't be an obligation on people to marry within the same race.....but then they just become stubborn because they think that if i permit this how will the rest of the community look upon me..it becomes about keeping a good reputation within the community than doing what is correct islamically

[JesikaFlpk]

I think some of the older generation when you speak to them about things such as marrying out of race etc i know deep down they know there shouldn't be an obligation on people to marry within the same race.....but then they just become stubborn because they think that if i permit this how will the rest of the community look upon me..it becomes about keeping a good reputation within the community than doing what is correct islamically

Of course this is the case and it is a serious problem. I once knew an older member of our community who had immigrated from a Muslim-majority country who, like the young Muslim men I mentioned in my previous post, was very well-respected within the community and a good Muslim as far as anyone could tell. However, almost every time his name was mentioned when he was not present, someone would inevitably say, "Did you know he married an American woman?" Female members of my family knew his wife and always said that she was among the most pious Muslim women they had ever known and this man was always extremely pleased with her as a wife. Witnessing this was extremely disheartening.

We need to sincerely ask ourselves which reputation we are more concerned with maintaining–our reputation with the people of his earthly life or our reputation with Allah, Who determines our fate in the hereafter? What would be better for our descendents, for the future of our Ummah–that they are raised with strong cultural values or with strong Islamic values?

[vdw4Epsi]

Your generalizing. Customs or culture is not in and of itself opposed to islam. Instead "urf" is one of basis of shariah. So you should more specific in your criticism of certain people sticking to a specific opinion that is in clear terms opposed to Islam or disliked.

Maybe oneday when your a parent you'd too face the dilemmas the "cultural" parents face in matters of their children as opinions clash between them.

[Tryphadz]

^I was careful to make the distinction in my original post.

(Before people jump in with this, in no way am I saying that cultural practices that fall in line with Islam should be done away with; however, imposing them or promoting them with a remotely comparable degree of importance as Islam should never happen)

[Janarealiti]

We are living through confusing times. Young people are idealistic and they have a tendency to look for purity, they might even want to rebel against whatthey see as old hypocritical attitudes of the older generations...this needs to be channeled into constructive ways by the community elders...but because we live in unformed temporary communities in urban centres it is not possible. Being put off Islam because of the way the older generations practice it is a sign of immaturity and too much idealism....the real world is not perfect nor does it have to live up yo some perfect template...people are complex their life experiences are obviously different form the young so they will be different...we just need to gain a deeper understanding and let people be instead of trying to force matters...generally old people are not going to change they are too set in their ways.

[estuapped]

As-salamu alaykum.


What are your thoughts on this issue? What have your experiences been?

JazakAllahu Khayran for all of your responses.

Just being muslim isn't enough.

[fereupfer]

The primary condition that we should look for is a 100% practising muslim, however lifestyle and mannerisms even within the muslims differ from place to place-culture to culture without being un islamic at all. Therefore those wishing to marry out of their own race need a lot of maturity, perseverance and open mindedness. Those who oppose it simply because of "family image" or "keeping our culture", they have gone beyond the boundries and deserve severe criticism, without the critics being disrespectful. Their idea is un islamic and totally irrational. By the way for those who adore white women, i`ve seen alot (since i`m living amongst them) they`re absolute KHBEETHAAT-the non muslim ones. if they were brought up as muslims than Nurun ala nur

[Fellionas]

The primary condition should be 100% practising muslim. However people from different cultures and places have different lifestyles. Therefore despite being good muslims there might be huge differences. Those wishing to inter-marry (cultures) should be filled with tolerance & maturity.
Our greatest heritage is islam, not our culture. Shame on those muslims who have switched the two around. With regards to marrying non muslims, i live amongst them, a pre-dominantly white area, and trust me 80% or more of them are khabeethat in every sense of the word. Yes if they (whites) had an islamic upbringing than it will be completely different.

[Corporal White]

This culture first thing over Islam among many muslims is like a disease.

I wanted to marry a muslimah that I had known for 4 years.

Her father and brother knew me and had performed salat next to me at the masjid many times.


When I sent a brother to talk to them on my behalf.

They said No and refused to meet with me.


Because I was not from their country or their tribe; plus, I was of a different race.

It was a devastating experience to say the least.

[Beriilosal]

This is not a valid reason.

not only them many Muslims have become like that

[evennyNiz]

This culture first thing over Islam among many muslims is like a disease.

I wanted to marry a muslimah that I had known for 4 years.

Her father and brother knew me and had performed salat next to me at the masjid many times.


When I sent a brother to talk to them on my behalf.

They said No and refused to meet with me.


Because I was not from their country or their tribe; plus, I was of a different race.

It was a devastating experience to say the least.

I'm very sorry to hear that this happened to you. I pray that Allah finds you a Muslim wife who will be even better for you than the one you were hoping to marry.

Just being muslim isn't enough.

In what ways are you suggesting that "just" being a good Muslim would make someone deficient?

[rushiddink]

In what ways are you suggesting that "just" being a good Muslim would make someone deficient?

As-salamu 'alaikum wa rahmatu Allahi wa barakatuh

I don't think that's what he meant. Even if two people are good Muslims, it does not necessarily mean that they should get married or that the marriage will be a good one. Case in point the marriage of Zaynab bint Jahsh (ra) and Zaid bin Harithah (ra). Great Muslims but not such a succesfull marriage. There's a lot more to a marriage than that. I think that's what he is saying.

[Varbaiskkic]

^That point is fair, but the main point of my thread, that culture should not take on an importance even comparable to Islam, still stands.

[IdomeoreTew]

As-salamu 'alaikum wa rahmatu Allahi wa barakatuh

I don't think that's what he meant. Even if two people are good Muslims, it does not necessarily mean that they should get married or that the marriage will be a good one. Case in point the marriage of Zaynab bint Jahsh (ra) and Zaid bin Harithah (ra). Great Muslims but not such a succesfull marriage. There's a lot more to a marriage than that. I think that's what he is saying.

Salaam, Please could you shed light on the part in bold, as this is something knew to me. What do you mean by not so successful?