[pKgGpUlF]

Salam

A brother tested some of the claims of the numerical aspects of the Qur'an on video:

Here's part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xix7...layer_embedded

Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ4sh...layer_embedded

And he said:
""On your second point, I would challenge you to produce similar patterns in any other book. I tried this exercise on Alice in Wonderland and Romeo & Juliet. I did not find even one example of repetition of any two similar words. Not one."

Wasalam

[fabrizioitwloch]

for posting the videos.

Reading the comments on the channel, I can't help but notice a "debunked myth" theory put forward about debunking the miracle. , a brother actually replied to the "debunked" assertion and proved that it wasn't debunked after all. And the author of the (failed) debunked even put a special disclaimer;

"I emphasise that I have just added this for interested readers since most comments from Muslims have for some reason focused on how it could have been done by a human deliberately. I regard that question as an interesting, but distracting irrelevance. If, as I argued, this property of the numbering system was an unintended coincidence, then it is irrelevant how hard it would have been for a human to implement it deliberately.";

that is, admitting that it's very hard for any human to deliberately do the numbering, while deliberately denying any form of miracle in it, so it's just a "coincidence".

I'll quote an excellent reply directly from the failed debunked site;
[link removed]

An excellent reply from the "texan" brother;

Your made these statements: “”For example, you could add/subtract any multiple of 2 to the number of ayats of any sura in the even s+a group. For 2 even numbered suras, you could swap their number of ayats if both are even or both are odd. The same for 2 odd numbered surahs.”

There’s another “coincidence” that you missed. There are a total of 114 surahs in the entire Qur’an. The surah that comes right in the middle of these 114 is surah al Hadid (57th). If we multiply all surahs by their verse numbers and sort the total in ascending or descending order, ALL surahs will be out of place except for surah al Hadid i.e. the center chapter will remain in the middle (stay the 57th).

So let’s apply your theory on swapping verses (ayats). Lets swap the number of ayats in the first and the middle suras since they are both odd. ie., 1 (7) and 57 (29) are swapped as follows: 1 (29) and 57 (7). Now while the sum holds true, the multiplied total fails. Chapter 57 is at number 5 now, when the multiplied totals of suras & verses are sorted ascending and is no longer in the middle. Thus the symmetry breaks.

Similarly, if you remove 100 (a multiple of 2) verses from sura 18 which has 110 verses and is in the even s+a group, the sum holds but the multiplied total fails and sura 57 (the central chapter) is no longer in the middle.

Now, it may “appear” to work if you move a few verses here and there but please bear in mind that these are the relationships that we just discovered (using computer programs), there maybe other ones that are getting violated, that we may not even know about.

As for your statement that these “coincidences” are not remarkable, please note that Quran was revealed over a period of almost 23 years, in a hap hazard manner, at various places, during war and peace, as a guidance for the whole mankind, covering a variety of topics like life, death & hereafter. Not every Surah was revealed and completed before moving to the next one. Sometimes a few verses would be revealed from one Surah then other verses from another Surah, with several incomplete Surahs at one point or another, but when the revelation was completed every Surah was completed.

There are chapters named after Mary (Mother of Jesus) and cow. How “great” a book would it be if the verses for Mary and cow were switched to cook up a numeric miracle? Point is, you can’t just move around a few verses here & there just because they are both odd or even and claim the pattern holds true. You are completely missing the essence of Qur’an if you just look at it as a book on maths.

=================================

Regarding 6,000, 6,204, 6,219, and 6,236 verses, what’s the proof on this? Britannica just mentions this as a passing comment. You’ve not offered any proof either. How do you prove Qur’an, as taught by Prophet (saws), had many versions and Kufic version was any different from what he taught?. Kufa, as a city, was founded during the time of second caliph Umar ibn Khattab (R.A). All four righteous caliphs were huffaz themselves. They were all contemporaries of prophet (saws) and prayed along with him. Since they had direct access to prophet (saws) himself and learnt Qur’an directly from him, what would be the reason for them to change or alter the sequence of suras or ayas?

If you are insinuating that Qur’anic verses were not codified during the life of Prophet (saws) then you are wrong. Or, can you please back up your claim? This is what Muslims believe which is backed up by sahih hadith, books on sunnah and seerah:

Order of Verses:

Muslim scholars agree that the order of the verses in every chapter was done or commanded by the Prophet (saws) himself following the commands of Almighty Allah.The Prophet (saws) once told his Companions after he had received a certain revelation that the arch-angel Gabriel had specified for him the particular order of verses (Ahmad). There are also many incidents narrated in the books of Sunnah regarding the Prophet’s (saws) recitation during prayer. The Companions used to pray every day behind the Prophet (saws) and he used to recite the Qur’an in the order given to him by Allah, and they used to learn and memorize from his recitation. There have never been any incident in which any of the Companions reciting in any order that violated the order of the verses showed to us by the Prophet (saws).

Order of Surahs:

As for the order of the surahs (chapters), the most accepted view is that it was also applied following an instruction given by Almighty Allah. It has been recorded that the Prophet (saws) reviewed the Qur’an with the arch-angel Gabriel 24 times all within his life. Every year, he used to review it once during the month of Ramadan with Gabriel. During the final year of the Prophet’s life, Gabriel revised the Qur’an twice with the Prophet (saws) as a way of confirming it. The Prophet (saws), in turn, used to follow this order in teaching his Companions and communicating the message to them.

=================================

Your statement “While I think this feature of the Qur’an was simply an unintentional coincidence, I have explained in a comment dated June 17 2012 below how it would actually be a simple process to manufacture this pattern.”

No, you haven’t shown how to manufacture this pattern, far less show how simple it is. All you’ve done is show that if you move around a couple of verses (ayats) that satisfies a certain criteia it will STILL hold the pattern. That’s FAR from manufacturing the pattern. It is easy, NOW (with the help of a compuer program), to spot the pattern once it has already been built. And I’ve shown you that when you move verses around it does break other symmetries that we know now. More importantly, you also need to take care of the contents of the suras, you can’t just mix & match verses from different suras just to manufacture a pattern or a create a miracle.

Forget all these, why don’t YOU start afresh? I’ve given a sample matrix below. It is the structure of a book with just 4 chapters that is in perfect symmetry. You can “try” developing it to cover all 114 chapters. I simplified it by reducing the minimum number of verses per chapter to 2 (Qur’an’s minimum number of verses per chapter is 3). While you are at it, please also remember that your book should be:

1) A guidance to mankind.
2) Should have poetic grammar in a classical language.
3) Should cover a heck lot of topics on life, death & hereafter.
4) And include only scientific truth.

And yes, you need to do all these sorting in your mind without the help of a computer (escpecially no VB script or excel!). Try it and let us know please. Here’s the matrix:

Sura Ayats s+a even s+a odd s+a
—— ——— ——– ————- ————-
1 3 4 4
2 3 5 5
3 2 5 5
4 2 6 6
——- ——– ———– ———-
10 10 10 10

I wish you had spent 1/10th the time you spent on writing the VB script on actually reading Qur’an, maybe you’d seen something of value. And if ever you choose to do so, try getting Muahmmad Asad’s translation.

Peace be unto you & your family, may God guide us all in the right path !

Thanks

-Texan Allah Knows Best.

[Farson]

JazakAllah khair brother, I read that link before but could you remove the link to it, as its an islamophobe website, and no point increasing its popularity right?
Yes you're right about how the islamophobe put that disclaimer on "emphasise" haha.
subhanAllah, I actually tested that number of verses maths ages ago, and that link's explanation was nonsense. I actually showed the test to a number of non-Muslim maths professors and they couldn't explain it.

[leijggeds]

JazakAllah khair brother, I read that link before but could you remove the link to it, as its an islamophobe website, and no point increasing its popularity right?
Yes you're right about how the islamophobe put that disclaimer on "emphasise" haha.
subhanAllah, I actually tested that number of verses maths ages ago, and that link's explanation was nonsense. I actually showed the test to a number of non-Muslim maths professors and they couldn't explain it.

should I remove the link? Otherwise the quoted reply from brother "texan" would be hanging without the actual framing that formed the basis to his answer. Moreover his answer beatifully debunked the assertion put forward by the author of the site. I'm open to a suggestion though and have no problem to remove the link.

[paratayoma]

Yes the quote is fine, but please remove the link.
No point giving extra popularity to an Islamophobic website

[Soulofpostar]

should I remove the link?

yes

[d1Bc25UP]

brothers, link is removed.