[antipenq]

you may find this book by Ragip Frager relevant http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=_...frager&f=false

Here is the Amazon of the book.

Here are the three user reviews.
One
One of The Best Explanations of Sufism Given In The West, August 28, 2000
By
"j.michael@disinfo.net"

This review is from: Heart, Self, and Soul: The Sufi Psychology of Growth, Balance, and Harmony (Paperback)

When one thinks of Sufism in the West, most often it is related to Rumi, or it is a very general apprehension of Sufism in a starkness that fails to convey it's heart and reality. This book is, as of yet still not very well known, but it will soon be very well known- because Robert Frager exposits the teaching, and psychology of Sufism in the most complete manner that has ever been done in the West. He is a scholar, but he is also a Sufi Shaykh, in the lineage al-Jerrahi al-Halveti. Shaykh Frager has had incredible, and powerful teachers in Shaykh Muzafer Ozak, and Shaykh Tosun Bayrak. This book contains the essence of what Shaykh Frager has benn teaching over the years. It is all here, finally put down in book, and is fantastic. The language of the book is intuitive, clear, and precise. It draws one to examine the one's self. The teachings on the nafs and the lower self are very serious and important. This is a path of Love in action. It teaches of the Eye of the Heart, or Intellect of the Heart as the reigning wisdom that subdues all ignorance, and obscuration of being-It shows you how. The spirit of true prayer is also conveyed by this book. It is a rich treasure that once ingested will remain in the soul for the rest of one's life. This book will prove to be vey hard to improve on. All praise to Allah!

Two
Sufism from the psychological perspective, November 11, 2002
By
Hasanah Che Ismail (Kubang Kerian, Kelantan Malaysia)


This review is from: Heart, Self, and Soul: The Sufi Psychology of Growth, Balance, and Harmony (Paperback)

Sheikh Muzaffer must have been a good Guru for initiating this author into sufism. Dr. Frager's understanding and contribution to sufism is valuable. His writing is easy to understand and practice [though page 173-174 is acceptable for those who are not yet Muslim; Muslim should refer to more valid intruction and guide].

What he shared at times touches my heart. Sufism/tasawwuf, or the spiritual component of Islam is the beautiful aspect of Islam; the right path to God as long as practiced according or within the syariah, the physical component.

Dr. Frager, being a clinical psychologist was able to show how sufism could be incoporated into healing. This aspect of healing should be within the capacity of all muslim doctors.

This book is suitable for lay person as well as specialist in medical or psychological field. It should be a must for psychiatrists in training, who probably have been exposed only to Fruedian or neofreudian thinking.

Three
Connection between psychology and spirituality, February 25, 2009
By
Uzma Sharaf "Bookheaven" (PA)

This review is from: Heart, Self, and Soul: The Sufi Psychology of Growth, Balance, and Harmony (Paperback)

I love reading this book and recommended to group studies as well .It is easy to understand and full of short sufi tales. This book describes essence of islam which revolve around betterment of self ,purification and progression of soul.Islam inspire evolution of soul.This path of evolution is called sufism in modern term. Wonderful book for those who are intereted in spiritual quest. Exploring connection between spiritualty and psychology.
It is also a good book for comparitive study between western and eastern psychology. Stories of sufis convey deep understanding of islamic views as well. One can learn a lot through this kind of exploration about ego. Postive and negative effect of ego on our soul.Application of concepts help one progress towards spiritual growth and purification.Help one understand human nature ,own self ,soul and distinguish between healthy qualities and egoistic distructive qualites hidden in every human being. How we should over come these negative tendencies hidden in us. First step is recognition of negativity with in us through meditation.Second step is Transformation of negative, distructive self thus cultivating positive qualties that leads to evolution of one self.

[paratayoma]

Assalamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullah

Brother I can see what you are saying and agree with it in many ways but on the issue of the necessity for the Islamicization of
'modern' science I think you may be a little over pessimistic.

In one thing you are talking about I think you are mixing two things here - these are empirical science and the philosophies that influence how we interpret it

empirical science is just a value neutral system of systematic observation allied to mathematical analysis. it has no essential underlying theories other than the belief that the world can be understood more accurately through scientific observation and measurement.

The fact that many scientists in the last three centuries have been used by the misguided materialist philosophies of the kafiroon to try an imply that they are scientifically justified is nothing to do with science - only with the utilization of science and its misinterpretation.

The foundations of empirical science are very much foundations in the Islamic civilization with dozens of figures such as Al-Biruni, Al-Kindi, Jabbir Ibn Hayyam and Ibn Haitham laying the essential foundations of scientific observation, empiricism and mathematics that would much later reach Europe and take off like a rocket after the so-called European Enlightenment.

At the end of the day it is the case that philosophy is required to interpret the informational produce scientific research - the kuffar will inevitably interpret scientific findings in accordance with their misguided beliefs - rightly guided Muslims will interpret it in accordance with their correct beliefs and their Divinely enlightened philosophy.

brother you may find this article changes your views a little on this issue in some ways http://www.bediuzzamansaidnursi.org/...slim-countries its a bit long but is well worth the read

Assalamu alaykum,

What I meant by the metaphysical foundations of science is that there are many assumptions that are outright kufr that are necessary to do science. It has been said that you need to do a lot of metaphysics to get to a point where you don't need metaphysics, and even now philosophers can't figure out a proper materialist metaphysic. Science on the whole just ignores the problem since their concern is industrial production, not truth.

Science lies upon the assumptions that 'inert matter' exists as such, that you can determine by repetition 'universal laws' (see hume's problem of induction), that the universe if a closed system in which all causes and effects are material or produced by matter, and that all processes can be ultimately reduced to quantities, mathematical formulae. These all tend to drive one towards atheism. Reduction to quantity strips all objects of any qualitative properties, in fact science tends to pretend like qualities dont even exist or some how are produced by 'inert matter' which is a direct contradction, this strips objects of any 'essence' and makes the world appear as just a disparate, indefinite mass of quantifiable objects, nothing more.

Science, as such, lacks any explanatory value. This is because of its mechanistic and reductionist (to pure quantity) character. It can only describe or represent, it cant explain anything, that why there is something rather than nothing. So it is useless, even though the scientists vehemently defend it by the mentioning of the mass industrial applications of their science, which I might add, if these were absent, no one would care at all about their science.

So my question is why? Why would one want muslims to do science or to islamise it? The only reason could be to emulate the mass industrial production of the kuffar, since this is all science is useful for; creating vast amounts of soulless, useless plastic junk, and enabling this mass consumerist society to continue its pathetic existence. If muslims follow the kuffar, down this lizards hole so to speak, muslims will end up like the kuffar; materialistic, greedy, driven by desires and wants for material goods, mindlessly consuming and godless. So if we consider these masses of useless material goods as not worth having, there is no benefit in science at all.

Muslims have their own physical theories, though somewhat out of date, and if we were to use our own metaphysics as a starting point, any such natural sciences would be of a vastly different character, and we probably would not be able to match the kuffar in terms of industrial production.

Regardless, I believe their system will not last. Matter has the fundamental tendency to create disunity, chaos. This was a basic assertion about 'matter' made by the ancient Greeks, Aristotle included. We can see this easily in the materialistic societies of the west. There is no transcendent principle to unify their people, only a mass of desires and wants exist, they are only prevented from killing eachother en masse due to their belief that doing so would prevent them from satisfying their wants. This is an illusory stability, and the only thing stopping this mass chaos and slaughter from happening is the current relative level of prosperity.

It is evident that slowly the amount of 'chaos' present in the society is increasing, which eventually will lead to a dissolution of that society. Do not be fooled by their riches and technology, it is an illusion, it will one day be gone, since it is only predicated on cheap oil, once any prosperity disappears these westerners will complete their return to utter barbarism, murdering and raping eachother over their precious 'inert matter'.

[xochgtlm]

So my question is why? Why would one want muslims to do science or to islamise it? The only reason could be to emulate the mass industrial production of the kuffar, since this is all science is useful for; creating vast amounts of soulless, useless plastic junk, and enabling this mass consumerist society to continue its pathetic existence. If muslims follow the kuffar, down this lizards hole so to speak, muslims will end up like the kuffar; materialistic, greedy, driven by desires and wants for material goods, mindlessly consuming and godless. So if we consider these masses of useless material goods as not worth having, there is no benefit in science at all.



We have to realize the limitations of science. Give it the status it deserves. Its just a tool.

[Patgaepx]

Assalamu alaykum,

What I meant by the metaphysical foundations of science is that there are many assumptions that are outright kufr that are necessary to do science. It has been said that you need to do a lot of metaphysics to get to a point where you don't need metaphysics, and even now philosophers can't figure out a proper materialist metaphysic. Science on the whole just ignores the problem since their concern is industrial production, not truth.

Science lies upon the assumptions that 'inert matter' exists as such, that you can determine by repetition 'universal laws' (see hume's problem of induction), that the universe if a closed system in which all causes and effects are material or produced by matter, and that all processes can be ultimately reduced to quantities, mathematical formulae. These all tend to drive one towards atheism. Reduction to quantity strips all objects of any qualitative properties, in fact science tends to pretend like qualities dont even exist or some how are produced by 'inert matter' which is a direct contradction, this strips objects of any 'essence' and makes the world appear as just a disparate, indefinite mass of quantifiable objects, nothing more.

Science, as such, lacks any explanatory value. This is because of its mechanistic and reductionist (to pure quantity) character. It can only describe or represent, it cant explain anything, that why there is something rather than nothing. So it is useless, even though the scientists vehemently defend it by the mentioning of the mass industrial applications of their science, which I might add, if these were absent, no one would care at all about their science.

So my question is why? Why would one want muslims to do science or to islamise it? The only reason could be to emulate the mass industrial production of the kuffar, since this is all science is useful for; creating vast amounts of soulless, useless plastic junk, and enabling this mass consumerist society to continue its pathetic existence. If muslims follow the kuffar, down this lizards hole so to speak, muslims will end up like the kuffar; materialistic, greedy, driven by desires and wants for material goods, mindlessly consuming and godless. So if we consider these masses of useless material goods as not worth having, there is no benefit in science at all.

Muslims have their own physical theories, though somewhat out of date, and if we were to use our own metaphysics as a starting point, any such natural sciences would be of a vastly different character, and we probably would not be able to match the kuffar in terms of industrial production.

Regardless, I believe their system will not last. Matter has the fundamental tendency to create disunity, chaos. This was a basic assertion about 'matter' made by the ancient Greeks, Aristotle included. We can see this easily in the materialistic societies of the west. There is no transcendent principle to unify their people, only a mass of desires and wants exist, they are only prevented from killing eachother en masse due to their belief that doing so would prevent them from satisfying their wants. This is an illusory stability, and the only thing stopping this mass chaos and slaughter from happening is the current relative level of prosperity.

It is evident that slowly the amount of 'chaos' present in the society is increasing, which eventually will lead to a dissolution of that society. Do not be fooled by their riches and technology, it is an illusion, it will one day be gone, since it is only predicated on cheap oil, once any prosperity disappears these westerners will complete their return to utter barbarism, murdering and raping eachother over their precious 'inert matter'.

science and technology = power

we must take the power back from the non-Muslims

and make it so the Muslims have the upper hand once more -

and yes, the last time the Muslims had the upper hand over the disbelievers -

was the last time they had the upper hand in science and technology.


America and the West, even tiny Israel are kicking the Muslim Ummah black and blue -

they are not doing it through bravery or the strength of their hearts.

[PymnImmen]

science and technology = power

we must take the power back from the non-Muslims

and make it so the Muslims have the upper hand once more -

and yes, the last time the Muslims had the upper hand over the disbelievers -

was the last time they had the upper hand in science and technology.


America and the West, even tiny Israel are kicking the Muslim Ummah black and blue -

they are not doing it through bravery or the strength of their hearts.

The Sahabah didn't have any upper hand in technology yet they were given honor and victory over those who had power and technology (in their time).

I don't mean to say that technology is not to be used at all nor is it completely useless. It's just that it wasn't the main cause of honor and dominance of Islam.

[EspanaCamsInfo]

science and technology = power

we must take the power back from the non-Muslims

and make it so the Muslims have the upper hand once more -

and yes, the last time the Muslims had the upper hand over the disbelievers -

was the last time they had the upper hand in science and technology.


America and the West, even tiny Israel are kicking the Muslim Ummah black and blue -

they are not doing it through bravery or the strength of their hearts.

Let me remind you of the third kalima:

سُبْحَان اللهِ وَ الْحَمْدُ لِلّهِ وَ لآ اِلهَ اِلّا اللّهُ وَ اللّهُ اَكْبَرُ وَلا حَوْلَ وَلاَ قُوَّة ِ الَّا بِاللّهِ الْعَلِىّ الْعَظِيْ

(Flawless is Allah and the Praise is of Allah, and (there is) no god except Allah, and Allah is the Greatest. And (there is) neither might nor power except with Allah, the Sublime, the Tremendous.)

Muslims today are weak because they don't practice their religion. They won't become strong by imitating the kuffar.

[Mappaindy]

The Sahabah didn't have any upper hand in technology yet they were given honor and victory over those who had power and technology (in their time).

I don't mean to say that technology is not to be used at all or it's completely useless. It's just that it wasn't the main cause of honor and dominance of Islam.

brother even at the time of the Sahaba the Muslims started learning at the instructions of the Holy Prophet (saws)

- even to the extent that the prisoner of war who taught Muslims to read would be freed...

for example...

How did Muslims fight the battle of the trench?

was it with stones and sticks and leaving it to Allah and just trusting that Allah will fix everything for us?

no - it was by digging a trench with stakes in it for defense, something that Salam al-Farsi (raa) had seen in Persia -

but which was at that point superior military technology to that possessed by the Quraish who had no ability to deal with it

and which (through the mercy of Allah) allowed the believers to defeat the enemies of Islam in that battle.


Prophet Muhammad (saws) told us to seek knowledge even in China

and we know full well that it wasn't religious knowledge he was talking about

it was worldly knowledge and science is just as system for gaining this knowledge

(in China or elsewhere)


in the current era scientific methodology is indispensable brother

[AndyPharmc]

Let me remind you of the third kalima:

سُبْحَان اللهِ وَ الْحَمْدُ لِلّهِ وَ لآ اِلهَ اِلّا اللّهُ وَ اللّهُ اَكْبَرُ وَلا حَوْلَ وَلاَ قُوَّة ِ الَّا بِاللّهِ الْعَلِىّ الْعَظِيْ

(Flawless is Allah and the Praise is of Allah, and (there is) no god except Allah, and Allah is the Greatest. And (there is) neither might nor power except with Allah, the Sublime, the Tremendous.)

Muslims today are weak because they don't practice their religion. They won't become strong by imitating the kuffar.

Assalamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullah

If you are accusing me of denying the kaleemas of Islam because I am saying Muslims should take back science then you are surely saying something strange.

And if you are accusing me of saying that Muslims should imitate the kuffar then you are well out of order brother.


Muslims today are weak because they are mostly bad Muslims (weak like the froth on water according to one hadith that may be referring to the present)

but they are also weak because they have inferior technology


this world is a place of trial - Allah does not do everything for us brother


if a good Muslim has only a bow and arrow for defense

and he has to defend himself against a kaffir in an Apache helicopter

- is it his weak faith that will see him killed?

[EtellaObtaite]

SCIENCE BELONGS TO THE MUSLIMS

http://www.1001inventions.com/

HISTORY HAS BEEN DISTORTED

http://www.muslimheritage.com/

Some Muslims have continued their involvement in science but not enough of them and in many cases not the best ones.

http://metaexistence.org/timeline3.htm

An interesting read...

http://www.islamicity.com/articles/a...C0305-1967&p=1

[Optipitle]

Brothers Sulaiman and Superman/Overman

You should really try reading Fountain Magazine you may find it enlightening http://www.fountainmagazine.com/


__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __



cannot these hadeeth be said to apply to various useful sciences as well as other valuable ilm?


The Holy Prophet Muhammad (saws) said:

"The seeking of knowledge is obligatory for every Muslim."

(Al-Tirmidhi, Hadith 74) - is Islamic Ilm specified - no it obviously means beneficial knowledge in general yes?


The Holy Prophet Muhammad (saws):

“One who treads a path in search of knowledge has his path to Paradise made easy by God…”

(Riyadh us-Saleheen, 245) - this doesn't specify just Islamic learning - it implies other useful learning too - for example medical learning which is reliant upon scientific research, yes?

The Holy Prophet Muhammad (saws) said:

"If anyone travels on a road in search of knowledge, God will cause him to travel on one of the roads of Paradise. The angels will lower their wings in their great pleasure with one who seeks knowledge. The inhabitants of the heavens and the Earth and (even) the fish in the deep waters will ask forgiveness for the learned man.

The superiority of the learned over the devout is like that of the moon, on the night when it is full, over the rest of the stars.

The learned are the heirs of the Prophets, and the Prophets leave (no monetary inheritance), they leave only knowledge, and he who takes it takes an abundant portion.

(Sunan of Abu-Dawood, Hadith 1631) - this hadith is obviously primarily about Islamic Ilm, but does it deny that other useful/valuable knowledge is excluded?

The Holy Prophet Muhammad (saws) said:

"Allah, His angels and all those in Heavens and on Earth, even ants in their hills and fish in the water, call down blessings on those who instruct others in beneficial knowledge."

(Al-Tirmidhi, Hadith 422) does this beneficial knowledge not include things like medicine etc which rely upon scientific research to advance?


The Holy Prophet Muhammad (saws) said:

"Acquire knowledge and impart it to the people."

(Al-Tirmidhi, Hadith 107) - science is just one of the tools that can be used to acquire knowledge about the world around us.

[jackie Obrian]

just for reference: http://m.deenport.com/messages/view.php?t=26773

[fashikn]

you may also find these articles interesting ....

Scientists coming to Islam through science...

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...cientists.html

The importance of seeking knowledge...

http://www.islamicity.com/Mosque/IGC/knowledge.htm

Science came from the Muslims...

http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/

[Dwemadayday]

brother even at the time of the Sahaba the Muslims started learning at the instructions of the Holy Prophet (saws)

- even to the extent that the prisoner of war who taught Muslims to read would be freed...

for example...

How did Muslims fight the battle of the trench?

was it with stones and sticks and leaving it to Allah and just trusting that Allah will fix everything for us?

no - it was by digging a trench with stakes in it for defense, something that Salam al-Farsi (raa) had seen in Persia -

but which was at that point superior military technology to that possessed by the Quraish who had no ability to deal with it

and which (through the mercy of Allah) allowed the believers to defeat the enemies of Islam in that battle.


Prophet Muhammad (saws) told us to seek knowledge even in China

and we know full well that it wasn't religious knowledge he was talking about

it was worldly knowledge and science is just as system for gaining this knowledge

(in China or elsewhere)


in the current era scientific methodology is indispensable brother

Brother,

You may have misunderstood the intent of my last post, which was using the material things of this world with the hands but keeping their greatness out of the heart (by not completely relying on them, especially when they contradict the orders and system of Allah). There always seems to be confusion when this issue comes up.


You may want to check the fiqhi definition of 'Ilm and the context of its usage from Qur'an and Sunnah...

[Snocioncilm]

Brother,

You may have misunderstood the intent of my last post, which was using the material things of this world with the hands but keeping their greatness out of the heart (by not completely relying on them, especially when they contradict the orders and system of Allah). There always seems to be confusion when this issue comes up.


You may want to check the fiqhi definition of 'Ilm and the context of its usage from Qur'an and Sunnah...

wa Alaikum Assalam

that makes sense

[Serereids]

:

You may want to check the fiqhi definition of 'Ilm and the context of its usage from Qur'an and Sunnah...

Yes that is a good idea brother.

With regards those hadeeth maybe I was stretching it with one or two of them to understand them in that way, but I'm pretty sure that I have read works by learned people in the past that interpret at least some of them as referring to other types of beneficial knowledge as well as Islamic ilm.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________

Also I must say sorry to brother Maripat for distracting from the actual idea of the thread

[ovenco]

Yes that is a good idea brother.

With regards those hadeeth maybe I was stretching it with one or two of them to understand them in that way, but I'm pretty sure that I have read works by learned people in the past that interpret at least some of them as referring to other types of beneficial knowledge as well as Islamic ilm.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________

Also I must say sorry to brother Maripat for distracting from the actual idea of the thread

for the mutual understanding of certain things amongst ourselves...

Yes Maripat, maahf. : )

[arraxylap]

Brothers Sulaiman and Superman/Overman

You should really try reading Fountain Magazine you may find it enlightening http://www.fountainmagazine.com/


__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __



cannot these hadeeth be said to apply to various useful sciences as well as other valuable ilm?


The Holy Prophet Muhammad (saws) said:

"The seeking of knowledge is obligatory for every Muslim."

(Al-Tirmidhi, Hadith 74) - is Islamic Ilm specified - no it obviously means beneficial knowledge in general yes?


The Holy Prophet Muhammad (saws):

“One who treads a path in search of knowledge has his path to Paradise made easy by God…”

(Riyadh us-Saleheen, 245) - this doesn't specify just Islamic learning - it implies other useful learning too - for example medical learning which is reliant upon scientific research, yes?

The Holy Prophet Muhammad (saws) said:

"If anyone travels on a road in search of knowledge, God will cause him to travel on one of the roads of Paradise. The angels will lower their wings in their great pleasure with one who seeks knowledge. The inhabitants of the heavens and the Earth and (even) the fish in the deep waters will ask forgiveness for the learned man.

The superiority of the learned over the devout is like that of the moon, on the night when it is full, over the rest of the stars.

The learned are the heirs of the Prophets, and the Prophets leave (no monetary inheritance), they leave only knowledge, and he who takes it takes an abundant portion.

(Sunan of Abu-Dawood, Hadith 1631) - this hadith is obviously primarily about Islamic Ilm, but does it deny that other useful/valuable knowledge is excluded?

The Holy Prophet Muhammad (saws) said:

"Allah, His angels and all those in Heavens and on Earth, even ants in their hills and fish in the water, call down blessings on those who instruct others in beneficial knowledge."

(Al-Tirmidhi, Hadith 422) does this beneficial knowledge not include things like medicine etc which rely upon scientific research to advance?


The Holy Prophet Muhammad (saws) said:

"Acquire knowledge and impart it to the people."

(Al-Tirmidhi, Hadith 107) - science is just one of the tools that can be used to acquire knowledge about the world around us.

I think I might be wasting my time here. You don't seem to understand what I have been saying about the metaphysical foundations of science. It seems like you have this idea about 'science' that people get from popular culture, about it just being an innocuous way of finding out about the world, something harmless that benefits humanity. It isn't. You are too fixated on the supposed benefits of industrial scale science, like most muslims you're blinded by the prosperity and gadgets of the westerners. No offence.

We'll never 'beat' the west by adopting their forms, we would just become a cheap imitation of Europeans, like the turks have tried to be and how the people from Dubai have become.

Look at the afghans, for the most part they are the least westernised and least modernised of the ummah. They still hold fast to the religious traditions, and they are beating a superpower. If only muslims could behave like that, rejecting the wearing of western clothing and everything foreign, we wouldnt need nuclear bombs or aircraft carriers.

Anyway as I said before, the west as it is now, is doomed. We just need to wait it out.

[soprofaxel]

The Sahabah didn't have any upper hand in technology yet they were given honor and victory over those who had power and technology (in their time).

I don't mean to say that technology is not to be used at all nor is it completely useless. It's just that it wasn't the main cause of honor and dominance of Islam.

Editor of a very well known Urdu monthly from a Madarsa wrote that science is useless because in Spain Muslims were very well equipped with science and technology but they were defeated.

An empirical evidence which is difficult to deny. But is is facile. Since I do not know the nitty-gritty of Spanish episode I' can not make general statement but one event can be analyzed. The reduction of the cite state of Granada by Ferdinand and Islabella to ashes took place because they could not workout a self-sustaining system. Now that is a scientific problem. You got reduced because you could not manage a scientific practical problem.

And it is not the right thing to say that Companions(RA)'s life was devoid of science and technology. Digging of a ditch is a massive technological innovation (forget the technicalities of digging and focus on the concept). And from early battle maneuvers there are examples of armoured vehicle as well as big guns - catapult is that. Pollination of dates is a scientific process and it is finally approved by beloved Prophet(PBUH).

Brother,
You may have misunderstood the intent of my last post, which was using the material things of this world with the hands but keeping their greatness out of the heart (by not completely relying on them, especially when they contradict the orders and system of Allah). There always seems to be confusion when this issue comes up.

Akhi when we talk about using science and technology we do not have the least inclination of transferring our reliance on God to reliance on means.

for the mutual understanding of certain things amongst ourselves...

Yes Maripat, maahf. : )

It is perfectly alright if some allied ideas get sorted out in a thread. Of course it is worrisome if the main aim of the thread gets washed out by the distractions. I do not think that has taken place here.

I also have some empathy with the point that is bother brother Superman (sorry I can not get the German spelling). In Urdu we say that a man who has burned his lips by hot milk will blow on whey to cool it before his sips it. The calamity unleashed by materialistic inclination will make any sensitive person jittery. Just look at the consequences - they are so horrifying that do not even have courage to look at them. But honestly science story is just like the knife story. Both cutting vegetables and stabbing are possible with it. And I have come to realize that even the emotional, philosophical, spiritual issues related to science and technology can be sorted out. If brother Superman is still not convinced then he can open another thread and we can have a go at this point in that thread.

I think I might be wasting my time here.

Why do you say that?
Don't we value your words?
Aren't we your brothers in Deen?
Wassalam

[CO2490pL]

You don't seem to understand what I have been saying about the metaphysical foundations of science.

From what he has said so far I do not get the same impression. By the grace of Allah(SWT), like you, his too has a wonderful insight about scientific method.

just for reference: http://m.deenport.com/messages/view.php?t=26773

That looks like some useful info in useless colour scheme. Mind bringing that here?

[LomodiorCon]

I think I might be wasting my time here. You don't seem to understand what I have been saying about the metaphysical foundations of science. It seems like you have this idea about 'science' that people get from popular culture, about it just being an innocuous way of finding out about the world, something harmless that benefits humanity. It isn't. You are too fixated on the supposed benefits of industrial scale science, like most muslims you're blinded by the prosperity and gadgets of the westerners. No offence.

We'll never 'beat' the west by adopting their forms, we would just become a cheap imitation of Europeans, like the turks have tried to be and how the people from Dubai have become.

Look at the afghans, for the most part they are the least westernised and least modernised of the ummah. They still hold fast to the religious traditions, and they are beating a superpower. If only muslims could behave like that, rejecting the wearing of western clothing and everything foreign, we wouldnt need nuclear bombs or aircraft carriers.

Anyway as I said before, the west as it is now, is doomed. We just need to wait it out.

Brother

I think you are confusing the western theories and ideologies that have been associated to science (but which are just theories and ideologies) with science itself

In this I think you are mistaking the scientific method (which at the end of the day is basically just the empirical method of gathering data + rational mathematical analysis) for the theories and interpretations that have been applied to it by the disbelievers -

but really the scientific method itself has no metaphysical foundations at all - it is just a way of collecting and mathematically analyzing data.

one can still use and benefit from the scientific method even if one is a complete skeptic about its ability to provide any philosophical answers I personally am), simply because it is a useful method of understanding the material world around us with greater clarity.

Personally I do not believe (as do the kuffar) that science can provide any definite ultimate answers - as with scientific study of the universe you can never be sure that a discovery 'around the corner' will not completely invalidate all your existing theories - and until you know everything about the universe through scientific study of the universe - you can never be sure of anything that you know through scientific study of the universe (as new discoveries may disprove your understandings) - and as you can never be sure that you know everything through scientific study of the universe - you can never really be sure that you know anything at all through scientific study of the universe. So essentially the belief that we can fully comprehend the universe in this life by using science is a wrong one that is only an assumption and is actually part of the irrational beliefs of the dis-believers. - but this does not stop science from being a useful tool.

- and the postulates, research and theories of science can be either from the illuminated position of Islamic wisdom or from the darkness of disbelief.

Without 'modern' science there would be no modern medicine, no internet, no computers, no fully effective air-conditioning in hot countries etc,

Without modern science knowing what time to pray in cloudy weather in Northern Europe and Canada would be a nightmare - as the sun can be hidden behind clouds for days on end and the hours of the day vary greatly between seasons - however thanks to the use of modern technology (developed using the scientific methodology) people in those places can just look up prayer times that were calculated by computer on the internet.

Without the benefits of modern science someone from the Americas could hardly hope to go on Hajj unless they were very rich and their journey would indeed be a perilous one and there are many more such examples.

You are assuming that I am a materialistic person who likes the modern way of living, but in fact much to the annoyance of my wife, personally I would rather live in a log cabin or an old house somewhere beautiful and grow my own food and occasionally shoot a dear for meat -

and I think this type of natural living would be more healthy for all of us,

but at the end of the day if I need it I also want to benefit from modern medicine etc and I expect you do too.

Muslims gaining power and security by understanding and utilizing science in ways that are in harmony with Islam is very useful brother, many would say that it is even implied by the words of the Prophet (saws).

but it doesn't mean we have to live in any particular modern way or copy off the way of the disbelievers

- in fact if the Muslims had the technological ability to defend themselves against the attacks and dominance of the non-Muslims (which they do not have now simply due to a technological imbalance) then it would free Muslim countries with enlightened rulers to live in a more Islamic, healthy, natural and non-capitalistic way InshaAllah.

any way brother if you want to continue this interesting discussion further lets do it in this thread http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...ntific-method&