[GeraldCortis]

You answer is wrong brother and misleading.

Muhammad (pbuh) didn't say not to read the Injils (Bible) or to learn what it's teaching are about.

He just said not to ask the Christians to teach you about the Bible or their doctrine.

Then why would he be angered if Umar was just reading a portion from the Torah? It wasn't as if a Jew was telling Umar to say this or that.

The reason we should not seek guidance in the Bible is because just how the nations that claim to follow the Tawraat and the Injeel are misguided, so have their books been changed by their misguidance - and have become a source of their misguidance as they have become more ubiquitous (remember, the Torah was kept by the Rabbis and the Gospels were kept by the priests in a language only understandable to the clergy; these books became accessible to the laity much later than their original revelation or codification). It is fruitless for Muslims to seek guidance from the Bible. The only reason a Muslim should look and study the Bible is for comparative religion purposes, such as when countering Christian missionary work. Other than that, what point is there when we don't even study our own Qur'an?

The scholars have read the Bible for two reasons only: as a source of history to corroborate stories in the ahadeeth and the Qur'an (and even then, a lot of what is taken from the Bible is not seen as fact) or to counter Christian and Jewish apologetic rhetoric throughout history. The Israeliyaat are stories derived from the Jewish texts to create fuller narratives for stories found in the Qur'an but even then, many scholars would counter any narrative that contradicted the Qur'an (for example, we do not accept the incestuous relationship of Lot and his daughters mentioned in the Old Testament).

[skupaemauto]

To say that most do not prostrate themselves in prayer is not an obvious fact.

Are you speaking from experience or research data? If you have research data, then I would be interested in seeing the study.

It is not just a matter of prostrating as you are now trying to say, but a matter of prostrating in the manner described.

I know this is an obvious fact that they do not do this...

1. from having been a Christian myself a very long time ago,

2. having been in the churches of all the main denominations of the Western Church

3. having a reasonable knowledge of the practices of the Orthodox, Coptic and other Eastern churches.

it is bizarre that anyone should be arguing over this issue when it is so clear cut and definite that most Christians do not do this.

you are behaving like a troll in arguing over and defending such as silly objection as you made to the brother.

[cypedembeda]

Nope you shouldn't. Rasoolullah got angry with Umar (ra) when he brought Torah in front of him to learn it.
All previous scriptures were abrogated with the coming of Rasoolullah and the revelation of the Quran.
Spend time learning the Quran rather than wasting time with the Bible.


Al-Bazzaar on the authority of Jaabir(ra). He said, “‘Umar copied part of the Torah in Arabic, brought it to the Prophet , and began to read it to him. As he read, the Prophet’s face changed color. One of the men of the Ansaar said, "Woe to you Ibn Al-Khattaab! Can you not see the face of the Messenger of Allaah?’ Thereupon, the Prophet , said, ‘Do not ask the People of the Book about anything for they will not guide you when they have gone astray. (If you listen to them) You will either disbelieve in what is right or believe in what is false. By Allaah, if Moses had been alive today, he would have been obliged to follow me.’”

good point, but some Muslims need to refute missionaries and for them knowledge of these things are essential as I am sure you agree.

I think the essential difference is motivation - we shouldn't do it out of mere interest or out of seeking knowledge from these sources as they are abrogated and untrustworthy.

also if we are not really knowledgeable Muslims engaged in dawa with Christians or refuting missionaries then it is obviously the case that we should avoid reading the Bible - we have the Quran, Hadeeth and Seerah and the books of the scholars that we should be studying and they take more than a lifetime in themselves.

[12Dvop4I]

It is not just a matter of prostrating as you are now trying to say, but a matter of prostrating in the manner described.

As I am "now trying to say"? I was not changing what was said, so please do not read things into my posts that I did not say. My post was in reference to prostrating in the manner described.

I know this is an obvious fact that they do not do this...

1. from having been a Christian myself a very long time ago,

2. having been in the churches of all the main denominations of the Western Church

3. having a reasonable knowledge of the practices of the Orthodox, Coptic and other Eastern churches.

it is bizarre that anyone should be arguing over this issue when it is so clear cut and definite that most Christians do not do this.

Since we are only speaking of personal experience and personal knowledge, rather than any research data on the topic, it is clear cut to me that the opening post was an incorrect over-generalization. I don't think you really want to compare whose experiences within churches are more vast, thus indicating a greater opportunity to observe said behavior.

you are behaving like a troll in arguing over and defending such as silly objection as you made to the brother.

I am behaving like a troll? If the reason for me behaving like a troll is because the issue is clear cut, yet it is in fact not clear cut, then consequently, there is nothing troll-like in my behavior. Or did you just have an itch to insult me and it needed scratching?

If Husnaa is a "brother" then she has broken the rules of the forum for not indicating her correct gender.

[hellencomstar]

I am behaving like a troll? If the reason for me behaving like a troll is because the issue is clear cut, yet it is in fact not clear cut, then consequently, there is nothing troll-like in my behavior. Or did you just have an itch to insult me and it needed scratching?

It always upsets me to hear members call other people trolls just because they don't like their answer to a question.

Childish and rude...........