[gennickO]

I did hesitate before initiating this thread, but i have to admit that this issue is quite heavy on my mind. I also apologise as i really didn't know what title should be given...
I hope that i will receive some answers and that i will be understood despite my bad english ; please do avoid any dispute as this is not the purpose of this thread.

Today i read the whole discussion : Shaykh Ali Laraki Criticizes Deobandis and as i wanted to find some further informations on the Shaykh's position on niqab, i typed a quick research which lead me to those 2 discussions : A question on the niqab for the murabitun and : 'CALL IT AS IT IS!' by Shaykh Dr. Abdalqadir as-Sufi.
I read all of them... spent many hours and one may consider it as a waste of time, but i need to clarify all those things... and i do consider it quite important.


In the first thread (here) our brother is saying :

You should see of his reasons for women not to wear Niqab in the west [yes, some reasons were interesting but some were not]. One of them was Niqab is known to be resembling the Salafis and the Deobandis today. This is incorrect. No disrespect to the Shaykh, but he seems to have an 'issue' with the Deobandis and less with the Barelwis.

Can our brother direct us to this fatwa please ?

That's exactly the problem i am facing more and more... Sunnah being rejected because of the bad behaviour and disgusting da3wah of some so called "salafis"... But how did we arrive to this ? How will one even explain such a behaviour ?

Are we to neglect the luminous and great legacy of our master and beloved prophet, sallallahu 3alayhi wa sallam, because some others with whom we may not agree are grasping it ? If they are taking some sunan but not showing the good behaviour, shouldn't it be even more urgent for us to adhere to these sunan and strive to give it its haqq in order to correct the balance ? If we don't, are we not giving the kuffar an excuse to criticize those sunan ? (like saying : yeh you're right... that's not important, not good, not valuable and as "open minded muslims" we do not follow what they follow (ok... it may be an exageration, but still...)).

Is that the only way to differentiate ourselves from the so called salafi ? And by doing so, are we not actually differentiating ourselves from the sunnah more than anything else ?

And with what will we confront them if we let them the best that we have, i.e. the sunnah ?

If you got my point, al-hamdulillahi, then can you please provide some clarifications ? If you are from those who agree with the fact that we should abandon some sunan to differentiate ourselves from other deviated movements, please explain to us your view so that we may understand you better.
And if, in the contrary, you do not agree with that, please share your opinion and advises on what should be our behaviour towards it.

If my question needs more clarification, please let me know ; and don't disregard it. Jazakumullahu khayran.
Fi amanillahi

[Peter Hill]

I did hesitate before initiating this thread, but i have to admit that this issue is quite heavy on my mind. I also apologise as i really didn't know what title should be given...
I hope that i will receive some answers and that i will be understood despite my bad english ; please do avoid any dispute as this is not the purpose of this thread.

Today i read the whole discussion : Shaykh Ali Laraki Criticizes Deobandis and as i wanted to find some further informations on the Shaykh's position on niqab, i typed a quick research which lead me to those 2 discussions : A question on the niqab for the murabitun and : 'CALL IT AS IT IS!' by Shaykh Dr. Abdalqadir as-Sufi.
I read all of them... spent many hours and one may consider it as a waste of time, but i need to clarify all those things... and i do consider it quite important.


In the first thread (here) our brother is saying :


Can our brother direct us to this fatwa please ?

That's exactly the problem i am facing more and more... Sunnah being rejected because of the bad behaviour and disgusting da3wah of some so called "salafis"... But how did we arrive to this ? How will one even explain such a behaviour ?

Are we to neglect the luminous and great legacy of our master and beloved prophet, sallallahu 3alayhi wa sallam, because some others with whom we may not agree are grasping it ? If they are taking some sunan but not showing the good behaviour, shouldn't it be even more urgent for us to adhere to these sunan and strive to give it its haqq in order to correct the balance ? If we don't, are we not giving the kuffar an excuse to criticize those sunan ? (like saying : yeh you're right... that's not important, not good, not valuable and as "open minded muslims" we do not follow what they follow (ok... it may be an exageration, but still...)).

Is that the only way to differentiate ourselves from the so called salafi ? And by doing so, are we not actually differentiating ourselves from the sunnah more than anything else ?

And with what will we confront them if we let them the best that we have, i.e. the sunnah ?

If you got my point, al-hamdulillahi, then can you please provide some clarifications ? If you are from those who agree with the fact that we should abandon some sunan to differentiate ourselves from other deviated movements, please explain to us your view so that we may understand you better.
And if, in the contrary, you do not agree with that, please share your opinion and advises on what should be our behaviour towards it.

If my question needs more clarification, please let me know ; and don't disregard it. Jazakumullahu khayran.
Fi amanillahi

Yes, more clarity please.

Because I am reading that you feel a need to reject a sunnah to differentiate yourself from a certain group of people? is that correct.

If you look at the time of the Great and eminent Sahabi, Hadrath Ali (May Allah be pleased with him). He sent his companion, the master of Tafsir Hadrath Abdullah ibn Abbass to convince the Kawarij to come back to truth and path that he was on. However he forewarned him about their exceptional quality. upon seeing them, he (ibn Abbas) said that, 'their knees were like that of camels, and their hands also, and that their forehead engraved' This was all from the amazing devotion to Salah.

Regards these people Hadrath Ali did not consider them to be Kufar or Mushrikin, just those deviated from the truth.

So Hadrath Ali did not believe a need to neglect anything of the sunnah to differentiate with these people but to send a scholar of the highest calibre to convince them to come back to truth.

[MoreEndotte]

Yes, more clarity please.

Because I am reading that you feel a need to reject a sunnah to differentiate yourself from a certain group of people? is that correct.

No, i don't. But this is what i understood from the quote of our brother as being the opinion of Shaykh Ali Laraki.
I myself did face such answers as when i invited a sister to use a kunya (umm such & such), she replied : "i won't as the ones doing it here are the so called salafis"... (I heard same kind of answers on the issue of niqab).

So na3udhu billahi, i do not feel the need to reject a sunnah, but i feel hurt by my fellow muslims who want to do so presenting the reason above.

And by my question i just want to understand them (if that's possible), and also to have the other views.

Is that clearer ?

Jazakallahu khayran for sharing your opinion. Ma sha'a llahu, may Allah enlighten us and give us the understanding of Islam.
Fi amanillah.

[jackie Obrian]

[QUOTE=mutajawwilah;793695]

Today i read the whole discussion : Shaykh Ali Laraki Criticizes Deobandis and as i wanted to find some further informations on the Shaykh's position on niqab, i typed a quick research which lead me to those 2 discussions : A question on the niqab for the murabitun and : 'CALL IT AS IT IS!' by Shaykh Dr. Abdalqadir as-Sufi.
I read all of them... spent many hours and one may consider it as a waste of time, but i need to clarify all those things... and i do consider it quite important. My understanding of the 2 shaykhs you mention above is that they do not consider the face cover for women to be wajib. They are also against the widespread adoption of the color black by women, and feel this has been spread through Saudi influence. They think the Saudi regime is very liberal on riba and very strict on women as a result (because they have no control of their economic life as men, they have exerted control over women to compensate, it is a type of psychological illness of the nafs to do this). They are Malikis and they do not believe that the beard for men needs to be any particular length. They think it is far more important for Muslims to have a halal muamala (economy, trade, and commerce) than the size of the beard or the face veil, men should be exerting their masculine power in these fields instead of in these other issues that are of 'less importance'. Look at what the shariah says about Riba and its evils and compare it to what it says about the face veil or the beard and see which should be prioritised by Muslims. Allah declares war on people who do riba...yet most Muslims pay more attention to other issues of less importance.

[DrBrightonone]

Clarification: I do not consider the Shaykh's position to be ''batil'' or anything like that. Masha'Allah, the Shaykh is blessed and we, laymen, need to learn from him, insha'Allah.

He had some good reasons which are going to be, obviously, not the same for every woman. One of the reasons of it being a resemblance to the Deobandis and Wahhabis was unfair.

For instance, a certain community in USA might be known for harassing Muslimah's that adorn the Niqab, a lot, hence a scholar may choose to give the fatwa that she can wear Hijab.

[Xutrsavf]

Clarification: I do not consider the Shaykh's position to be ''batil'' or anything like that. Masha'Allah, the Shaykh is blessed and we, laymen, need to learn from him, insha'Allah.

Same here, insha'allahu. But can you please direct us to this fatwa so that we have a better idea ? Jazakallahu khayran.
Many reasons have been presented to "excuse" women from niqab, but that's something else (understood from the situation and circumstances). And Allah knows best.
This thread only deals with those who think that we should abandon a sunnah because it is resembling such and such...


Brother Abu Zakir, i heard many times - and this is indeed true - that some issues are more important than the way one is dressed. However, how it leads to discredit a sunnah i can't understand. Can't efforts be done to improve the state of the Ummah and at the same time cling to the sunnah of the most beloved one, sallallahu 3alayhi wa sallam, and of the pious mothers and the sahabiyat, radhiyallahu `anhunna ?
Also, why should the importance of a matter lead to belittle another one ? I don't get it. If the issue is not that important (i.e.: the size of the beard or the face veil), why can't we keep it at that and respect everyone whith their opinions and preferences ?
I won't go back to the previous discussion (in which no clarification was given on the qualification of the niqab...), but i would love to understand what lead this ummah to be so divided ? It is because some muslims blame the sunnah that non muslim have room for their discriminations. Just see what happened in France... what a shame, subhanallah...
Brother, can't we fight riba with a long beard and a niqab ?

[nAKMzyBN]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1086...7792650922703/

[StoyaFanst]

Salam `Aleykum,

If you're a Shafi`i why not follow Shafi`i Fiqh with complete disregard to what Salafiyoun do? for example as far as Kuniyah is concerned your Imam which you follow (i.e al-Shafi`i) had a Kuniyah and he used to be called abu `Abdullah.

As for Niqab a woman must cover her face in front of non-Mahram men according to al-Nawawi, so just follow the Madhab and don't think about what others so.

[pavilionnotebook]

Brother ImamGhazzaali, jazakallau khayran.

Brother TripolySunni, al-hamdulillahi i do wear niqab (i pray Allah to bless me with the true understanding and wisdom of it) and i do have a kunya. That's not what is discussed here.

I know my english is far from being good, but i think my question is more clear than that, isn't it ? I would consider the like of the answer of Sidi Gabriel to be more in the subject. Also, being a shafi`i doesn't and shouldn't stop me from trying to understand my fellow muslims and discuss with them in the best of manners. Knowledge is needed for that, and the more you understand an issue as such, the more knowledge/wisdom you get to deal with it.

And Allah knows best.

[Kimeoffessyr]

Salam `Aleykum,

If you're a Shafi`i why not follow Shafi`i Fiqh with complete disregard to what Salafiyoun do? for example as far as Kuniyah is concerned your Imam which you follow (i.e al-Shafi`i) had a Kuniyah and he used to be called abu `Abdullah.

As for Niqab a woman must cover her face in front of non-Mahram men according to al-Nawawi, so just follow the Madhab and don't think about what others so.

People have the wrong idea that if Salafis do it, it must be wrong. Salafis also pray 5 times a day so should we also stop doing that? Salafis also fast in Ramadhan, so should we stop doing that? Salafis also warn against zina, are against mixing of the sexes, etc. so should we stop warning against zina and promote mixing of the sexes (and some already do this latter aspect!)?

Just because the Salafis do or don't do something doesn't mean we should or shouldn't do it. The source of our Islam is the Qur'an and Sunnah as understood by the four madhahib. What the Salafis do or don't do should have zero bearing on our deen.

[ahagotyou]

People have the wrong idea that if Salafis do it, it must be wrong. Salafis also pray 5 times a day so should we also stop doing that? Salafis also fast in Ramadhan, so should we stop doing that? Salafis also warn against zina, are against mixing of the sexes, etc. so should we stop warning against zina and promote mixing of the sexes (and some already do this latter aspect!)?

Just because the Salafis do or don't do something doesn't mean we should or shouldn't do it. The source of our Islam is the Qur'an and Sunnah as understood by the four madhahib. What the Salafis do or don't do should have zero bearing on our deen.

Nowadays many ignorant Sufi claimants mock the insistence on making Jamat in the Masjid, and growing the beard: because it's "Wahhabite" practice

[brilkyPlayday]

Indeed, that's what it is. But what is your way of dealing with that ? Are you all just ignoring it ?
Is there no more stories like the first one to be shared ?

[Anakattawl]

Indeed, that's what it is. But what is your way of dealing with that ? Are you all just ignoring it ?
Is there no more stories like the first one to be shared ?

The khawarij executed the son of the beloved companion kabbab (may Allah be pleased with him) only on the basis he disagreed that the amirul mumineen was kaffir.

It is simply a matter of ignoring what you hear to what you have been taught to be true. The burden of proof only lies with the scholar and the lay person has no obligation and is relieved of this. So why attempt to comprehend issue that Allah has not given to you to deal with? La illaha illallah.

Sahabah are the greatest of people. Upon hadrath Ali going to battle against hadrath Aisha (may Allah be pleased with them) he stated, 'Allah is testing me whether I stand on the truth or ascribe partners with him by taken her side'. This is to be understood from the verse when people take others as the lord when they favour the side of people over the truth. He believed to be on truth and had the knowledge to be absolutely certain of it, this confidence was a great gift from Allah to the companions.

The blessed people who excel above others with firm conviction of the truth will always embark on a constant struggle against the interpretation of others, but it is only they who can do this. Someone like me is just affiliate to the people of truth and has the knowledge funnelled down

[rvadipoldkov]

rejecting a Sunnah to differentiate oneself from the Salafis? - what a foolish thing to do!

[P9CCd35R]

It is simply a matter of ignoring what you hear to what you have been taught to be true. The burden of proof only lies with the scholar and the lay person has no obligation and is relieved of this. So why attempt to comprehend issue that Allah has not given to you to deal with? La illaha illallah.

Jazakumullahu khayran. But what if you are facing this situation and this way of thinking ?
Al-hamdulillahi, i am now based in England, but the country i come from, and where i may have to go back at some point, has nothing to do with what you have here. Masha'allahu you have well established madaris, plenty masajid, great `ulama' (and real ones...), many students of knolwedge and people who can stand and fight for the sunnah... But in my country things are so different. The few shuyukh we have do not always stand with the truth... They don't always follow the dominant opinion of their madhhab (maliki)... and other things of the kind. On the other side, the salafis are quite well established over there... they probably represent the majority of the Ummah. This is the reason why you will have many people (even the "shuyukh") saying that neglecting some sunan to deferenciate from the "wah..bi way" is actually something that we should do, and most of the time this will coincide with the dress code. They won't say it that way, of course they won't say "neglect a sunnah", but this is how i interpret and understand things. The way they would say it is more like the way Shaykh Laraki presented his opinion.

So i do get your point, but i feel things are not as perfect and simple as they may be here, in England.
I know a forum is not the ideal place to get the wisdom, but i felt as sunniforum was a good place for that... Allah Only knows if i was wrong.

Do you understand that i can't really ignore it, even if i wanted to, as those things are constantly coming my way ?

Hmm... this may not be clear enough. Khayr insha'allahu.

[sportlife]

. This is the reason why you will have many people (even the "shuyukh") saying that neglecting some sunan to deferenciate from the "wah..bi way" is actually something that we should do, and most of the time this will coincide with the dress code.
.

Sounds so ridiculous, but hey I have nothing to worry about. So let them leave the Sunnah (and Fardh in some cases) and let us "Wahhabis" have them, send them my (our) thanks.

[Ad0i89Od]

Jazakumullahu khayran. But what if you are facing this situation and this way of thinking ?
Al-hamdulillahi, i am now based in England, but the country i come from, and where i may have to go back at some point, has nothing to do with what you have here. Masha'allahu you have well established madaris, plenty masajid, great `ulama' (and real ones...), many students of knolwedge and people who can stand and fight for the sunnah... But in my country things are so different. The few shuyukh we have do not always stand with the truth... They don't always follow the dominant opinion of their madhhab (maliki)... and other things of the kind. On the other side, the salafis are quite well established over there... they probably represent the majority of the Ummah. This is the reason why you will have many people (even the "shuyukh") saying that neglecting some sunan to deferenciate from the "wah..bi way" is actually something that we should do, and most of the time this will coincide with the dress code. They won't say it that way, of course they won't say "neglect a sunnah", but this is how i interpret and understand things. The way they would say it is more like the way Shaykh Laraki presented his opinion.

So i do get your point, but i feel things are not as perfect and simple as they may be here, in England.
I know a forum is not the ideal place to get the wisdom, but i felt as sunniforum was a good place for that... Allah Only knows if i was wrong.

Do you understand that i can't really ignore it, even if i wanted to, as those things are constantly coming my way ?

Hmm... this may not be clear enough. Khayr insha'allahu.

It is is clear and I can appreciate the dilemma you are in, but what I say stands.

Whatever focus you direct yourself towards Allah will manifest and heighten this for you, make sense? It is the custom of Allah to open up the doors for whatever you dedicate and commit towards (the outcome does not mean it will always be good i.e. someone wants to just become wealthy)

One of the main reasons for confusion is lack of consultation. According to the interpretation of the Scholars the first command after Salah in the Quran is 'Consultation', one who is does not consult their affairs with scholars and rightly guided people is at a grave loss. We have been in conflict with Salafi's, Wahabi's, Brelawi's, etc, but always done via consultation of our elders and scholars. Those areas that we thought were important in our minds, may not be the case and we are advised to rethink through.

It is all about occupation of time, seriously. If you spend your energy trying to find all the women in your area (or anywhere else) that do not even know the obligatory act of bathing, your lifetime will be filled, I kid you not. Test this theory and ask a handful of young teenagers from non-deeni families/communities and see the response you get.

There is for you as a person who is not a scholar (I am assuming) that can do much more with your time that is worthy of the true pleasure of Allah and leave the rest to those who are more qualified. But my advise is only my own opinion and experience and if you are still adamant then Allah open the doors foe you, Ameen. However do not put yourself on a pedestal or highly plain that you have been gifted with from Allah i.e. taking the role of the scholars to unravel discussions and debates on matters of fiqh where you are clearly not qualified to do. In this era many want to take on this role, the freedom of information act in Islam (just made that up) and Mufti Google has given a digital Sanad to all who please.

This is one of the most powerful tool that the devil has unleashed on the Muslims. Destroy the tradition of the Deen and the people will fall.

[AngelinaLip]

'Rejecting'?? perhaps an apt word should be 'Not performing' or 'Not acting upon' but anyways...

not acting upon a sunnah just to differentiate oneself against the ghayr muqallids is according to me... plain insanity.

[Pippoles]

'Rejecting'?? perhaps an apt word should be 'Not performing' or 'Not acting upon' but anyways...

That's right. English in not my native tongue, so as i said, it was not easy to choose an appropriate title. If some moderators want to, then this can be changed.

There is for you as a person who is not a scholar (I am assuming) that can do much more with your time that is worthy of the true pleasure of Allah and leave the rest to those who are more qualified. But my advise is only my own opinion and experience and if you are still adamant then Allah open the doors foe you, Ameen. However do not put yourself on a pedestal or highly plain that you have been gifted with from Allah i.e. taking the role of the scholars to unravel discussions and debates on matters of fiqh where you are clearly not qualified to do. In this era many want to take on this role, the freedom of information act in Islam (just made that up) and Mufti Google has given a digital Sanad to all who please.

This is one of the most powerful tool that the devil has unleashed on the Muslims. Destroy the tradition of the Deen and the people will fall.

Jazakumullahu khayran Sidi. I do totally agree with you. Indeed, i am but a faqirah trying to learn her religion, insha'allahu and i have no pretension whatsoever. I was simply asking this question "li yatma'ina qalbi", not to go out give da`wah nor to actually go and face others on that but at least to know the best way of answering if someone comes and tell me those things ; plus to try to understand those who do think like that. I was hoping to have some sisters participating as well, but al-hamdulillahi.

It does hurt/irk when you have your fellow muslims blaming a practise, a niqab, a long khimar, a qamis or anything else just because that resembles the salafis.

It is confusing at times, and that is why i felt like asking here... The Ummah is so divided... Allahu-l-Musta`an.

Look, in France you have the ban of the niqab... There's a group of sisters masha'allahu that have an association trying to fight this law. Now what ? Is it acceptable to say that they are wasting their time and that they should just leave it ? what do you, in England, think of all that ?

Sorry if you don't get my point, and i do understand what you say. Thanks a lot for your time and your answers.
Fiamanillah