[UnmariKam]

The following is a very brutal criticism of Deobandis that shaykh Ali Laraki posted on Facebook. I am not very familiar with him, but he does raise some valid criticism regarding dawah though it is very acerbic and bitter and not sure what to make of it...

Your thoughts?

Here it is posted in full:

Whenever I talk about deobandis, I talk about those who represent the teachings of Deoband in South Africa and the UK. Those are the only ones I know and have met. I do not speak about the debandis of India because I have never meet them, but those of SA and the UK suppose to represent them.

There is a very simple rule of thumb which is the following in Arabic
فاقد الشيء لا يعطيه
A loose translation will be: If you do not have something, you cannot give it.

I am so sorry, but I cannot accept the claims of real tasawwuf from the deobandis of the UK and SA. At list not from their majority, there are always exceptions. If they had any real tasawwuf other that a formal affiliation to such and such tariqa, they would have expanded the Deen among the Zulu, Sotho, Tswana and other African nations. The same among the British natives.

Historically, when the people of tasawwuf enter a land for trade or other reasons, the final result is the expansion of the Deen among the natives of that land. I am so sorry, but I could not see that done by our deobandi brothers. So the touchstone of the Deen is that it is transmittable. There is in it a light that attracts the people. Deobandis can't even keep their own Indian and Pakistani young generations in the Deen. They are loosing them. Just get into a mosque and then into a club to see it.

And what I said also applies also to the Barelwis. I know that what I am saying will probably bring me the enmity of both those groups, but that is not what concerns me. What concerns me is that they have became rigid in their positions claiming they are the protectors of the Deen and they are loosing everything.

They could have the Africans in their side in South Africa, but they were not interested in teaching them the Deen. They only wanted to exploit them or to turn a blind eye to how the traders among them treated their black employees (or course, because the traders are the ones who pay their nice masjids and Darul Ulums). Now the are under the thumb of the Africans and in a worst position than when they were under the whites.

As for here in the UK, they are acting in the same way. They are not interested in the least to expand the Deen. They want to get as much as they can from the UK but they give them not the most precious treasure they have: La ilaha illa Allah, Muhammadun Rasulullah. Well, they are loosing their own people. In fact, the religious and intelligent amont their youngsters are turning to sources other than them for their Deen. They are tired of the suffocating, puritanical and subservient to the financial system of the kuffar version of the Deen deobandis promote.

And as I said, Barelwis are not better than them in this aspect. But I have to recognise they are more open and welcoming to new ideas than the deobandis.
When I say new ideas, I say it in the sense of revival of the Deen not in the sense of blameworthy innovation.

Anyway, they either renew themselves or they will soon be a used ticket.

And Allah knows best
Other comments by the shaykh in the thread:

Don't forget. It is not about attacking deobandis or other groups. It is about taking that breeze of fresh air brought to us by the Shuyukh and 'ulama, many of them descendants of the Prophet SAWS like, Shaykh, Ninowi, Shaykh al-Ya'qubi, Shaykh Al-Jifri, and others may Allah protect them, and passing it to those who are waiting for it. WE HAVE TO CALL PEOPLE TO THE DEEN. That is our jihad. We have got it, lets give it. Otherwise, Allah will take it away from us and give it to others who will honour it.

...

As I said. There are always exceptions. But I will only discuss whatever I said about Deobandis with a Zulu Doubandi Mufti who as at least one Gujurati wife. Produce him and I will be more than glad to talk to him.

In fact, I will make it easier. I will accept the Mufti to be Sotho, Ndebele, Swazi, Tswana, Xhosa, or any other African tribe, and his wife can be Memon, or from other Indian tribe.

...

I am not getting into the doctrine of the Deobandis or the Barelwis. Both are Maturidi-Hanafi and that is correct as far as I am concerned. I do not want to get into their aqida-doctrinal quarrels. I am not interested. I believe that the Nizami syllabus they follow is excellent. I also don't talk about those in India, for I do not know their circumstances there. What I say is that they are a TOTAL FAILURE in their spreading of the Deen here in the UK and in SA. They have failed to pass the Deen and they are going to be replaced by the new indo-pakistani generations who are tired of their rigid, cultural, ghetto, suffocating version of the Deen.

As I said, Barelwis have not been better than them. But is seems to me, and to other ulama I have discussed the matter with, that their love for the Prophet SAWS, somehow has put them in a better situation. They are more open minded. And some of their ulama that I have spoken to do understand this matter. And Allah knows best.

...


When the people of tasawwuf will go to a land, they will call the natives of that land to Allah, teach them the Deen, free them from the shackles of kufr, elevate them, share their culture with them, respect the native culture and take form it what is good, marry them and mix with them. Show me, for Allah's sake, what have this great Deobandi and not Deobandi ulama have done regarding the natives of this land, I mean the UK and the natives of South Africa. Or you claim that the Wahite European and Black Southafricans suffer from and Anthropological impairment towards Islam.

...


To do dawa is not to give some food to the "poor blacks" and help some "poor white homeless" people, so you fell you have done your good action for that day or month. That is still a very patronising attitude which hides behind it a feeling of arrogance. I mean what I meant. You make the people to be part of you and you are part of them. You marry you daughters to them and marry their women. You share with them fully your all being. That, lets stop fooling ourselves, that hasn't been done.

...

The point is not to try to defend fanatically you affiliation. You, Deobandis and Barelwis, should forget you quarrels and do what you haven't done and you should have been doing. Get out of the ghetto mentality, get out of the ghetto physically, out of the ghetto intellectually and do what is necessary to do.

...

Somebody asked me:
That is true. Shaykh, you mention that the Pakistani and Indian youth, many of them are in nightclubs and are doing wrong . Do you reckon this might be the case for the Barelvi and Deobandi for not doing much dawah, as they are trying to focus on their own people first? Like you have groups like Tablighi Jamaat(deobandi) and Dawat e Islami (barelvi) who are focused on brining Muslims back to Deen.

And my answer was:
That is a wrong move. There will be nothing, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, that will move more the heart of a young Indian and Pakistani youngster than seeing a white young man making shahada and ambracing the Deen. That will be enough to take them out of the clubs. They will see that if they do not take on the Deen of their fathers and grandfathers, their great Mogul tradition, civilization and history, Allah will give it to other people who love Him and whom He loves. And Allah knows best.

...

[fgjhfgjh]

Link https://www.facebook.com/shaykhali.l..._comment_reply

Salaam i find myself to be very annoyed with some arab scholars who dub themselves as the pinnacle of tasawuff, which causes them to lash at others such as the deobandi Ulema in the Uk and sa, whithout no proof



Sheikh ali laraki: Whenever I talk about deobandis, I talk about those who represent the teachings of Deoband in South Africa and the UK. Those are the only ones I know and have met. I do not speak about the debandis of India because I have never meet them, but those of SA and the UK suppose to represent them.

There is a very simple rule of thumb which is the following in Arabic
فاقد الشيء لا يعطيه
A loose translation will be: If you do not have something, you cannot give it.

I am so sorry, but I cannot accept the claims of real tasawwuf from the deobandis of the UK and SA. At list not from their majority, there are always exceptions. If they had any real tasawwuf other that a formal affiliation to such and such tariqa, they would have expanded the Deen among the Zulu, Sotho, Tswana and other African nations. The same among the British natives.

Historically, when the people of tasawwuf enter a land for trade or other reasons, the final result is the expansion of the Deen among the natives of that land. I am so sorry, but I could not see that done by our deobandi brothers. So the touchstone of the Deen is that it is transmittable. There is in it a light that attracts the people. Deobandis can't even keep their own Indian and Pakistani young generations in the Deen. They are loosing them. Just get into a mosque and then into a club to see it.

And what I said also applies also to the Barelwis. I know that what I am saying will probably bring me the enmity of both those groups, but that is not what concerns me. What concerns me is that they have became rigid in their positions claiming they are the protectors of the Deen and they are loosing everything.

They could have the Africans in their side in South Africa, but they were not interested in teaching them the Deen. They only wanted to exploit them or to turn a blind eye to how the traders among them treated their black employees (or course, because the traders are the ones who pay their nice masjids and Darul Ulums). Now the are under the thumb of the Africans and in a worst position than when they were under the whites.

As for here in the UK, they are acting in the same way. They are not interested in the least to expand the Deen. They want to get as much as they can from the UK but they give them not the most precious treasure they have: La ilaha illa Allah, Muhammadun Rasulullah. Well, they are loosing their own people. In fact, the religious and intelligent amont their youngsters are turning to sources other than them for their Deen. They are tired of the suffocating, puritanical and subservient to the financial system of the kuffar version of the Deen deobandis promote.

And as I said, Barelwis are not better than them in this aspect. But I have to recognise they are more open and welcoming to new ideas than the deobandis.
When I say new ideas, I say it in the sense of revival of the Deen not in the sense of blameworthy innovation.

Anyway, they either renew themselves or they will soon be a used ticket.

And Allah knows best

[hexniks]

Salaam yeah i just posted on this ( mods please delete my thread or merge in into here) . i think he has been heavily misinformed, and he makes it seem that his opinion is the only one. He mention arabs scholars, why dosent he talk about the arqab scholars who support deoband ? Why dosent he talk about Sheikh yaqoubi using the commentary of deoband ....

[Azzi_Kahlila]

It was posted in brothers section also some time back.

I had a post on it at my blog.

[lXwVlTgO]

Whoever is discussing, let us maintain some aadaab and discuss in a proper manner.

Emotions may be high due to this criticism being at Deobandis and Barelwis.

Insha'Allah.

[freddystone]

I don't think the shaykh's dawah to non-Muslims would be any better, in fact, with that attitude, I think it'd be much worse and my guess is this bitterness is a product of the haal of certain Shakespearean actor Sufi murshids.

We have a big spiritual disease of having just enough courage to criticize fellow practicing Muslims, but never enough courage to do dawah to the non-Muslim.

[padlabtard]

I don't think the shaykh's dawah to non-Muslims would be any better, in fact, with that attitude, I think it'd be much worse and my guess is this bitterness is a product of the haal of certain Shakespearean actor Sufi murshids.

We have a big spiritual disease of having just enough courage to criticize fellow practicing Muslims, but never enough courage to do dawah to the non-Muslim.

What do you mean by the bold?

[mensforyouthis]

We have a big spiritual disease of having just enough courage to criticize fellow practicing Muslims, but never enough courage to do dawah to the non-Muslim.

Food for thought.

[Hdzcxqoi]

Just ignoring the tone of the critisicms and more to the points.

1) spread of Islam was never a proof of true tasawwuf. Just because there may have been some historical occurances or even patterns hardly relates the two in any concrete sense. To validate ones tasawwuf through the numbers of conversions is absurd.

2) in my research I found the inward looking Deobandi outlook to be a product of cololonaism. Sure not to blame it all on colonialism but due to the experience of the Indian Scholars against the British they did become inward looking as in let's care of our own house, our own Muslims, we need to preserve Islam in the lives of Indians. That was the main objective of establishment of deoband and TJ. Sure TJ has expanded beyond that and newer, younger Scholars from the Deobandi tradition have been moving from that inward looking mold into a more outward, big picture examination. It's a slow process and the colonial damages to the Indian Muslim community still linger on. It wasn't all that long ago. Their experience and conditions were not conducive towards establishing dawat into the nonmuslim community. Primary objective was self-preservation. What other option was there when thousands of scholars were being killed.

[ENGINESSQ]

2) in my research I found the inward looking Deobandi outlook to be a product of cololonaism. Sure not to blame it all on colonialism but due to the experience of the Indian Scholars against the British they did become inward looking as in let's care of our own house, our own Muslims, we need to preserve Islam in the lives of Indians. That was the main objective of establishment of deoband and TJ. Sure TJ has expanded beyond that and newer, younger Scholars from the Deobandi tradition have been moving from that inward looking mold into a more outward, big picture examination. It's a slow process and the colonial damages to the Indian Muslim community still linger on. It wasn't all that long ago. Their experience and conditions were not conducive towards establishing dawat into the nonmuslim community. Primary objective was self-preservation. What other option was there when thousands of scholars were being killed.

Also I bet this inward looking habit has saved a lot of people from bidah and verge of kufr. Because such practices are rampant in the sub-continent. Also amr bil ma'aroof nahiyaanil munkar is what this is all about. Its as important as dawah, I think.

[DexOnenlyCymn]

Brother Mazz
Articulated it well in particular point no 2.
Allahualam

[Flankrene]

What do you mean by the bold?

You can read his bio and see who his murshid is...
https://www.facebook.com/shaykhali.laraki

[teergoBissono]

Well I was thinking this Shaykh has some valid points, but then when he said that the Barelvis are more open and tolerant to new ideas, well clearly proved the Shaykhs knowledge of either group is lacking, I think his knowledge of Barelvis and the situation of muslims in uk is extremely laking,his article seems more like an emotional rant.

I think the main issue is that the Barelvis invite, Scholars like Shaykh Yaquobi, Shaykh Ninowy, and Shaykh Jifri and other arab sufis to their mosque to give lectures, whilst the Deobandis seem to be more insular. I think that is the underlying cause of the Shaykhs bitterness.

[ConoMadura]

He made a valid point about deobandis and also TJ not expanding their dawah to non-muslims thats a big weakness within them...all seemed fair and balanced until this particular comment

As I said, Barelwis have not been better than them. But is seems to me, and to other ulama I have discussed the matter with, that their love for the Prophet SAWS, somehow has put them in a better situation. They are more open minded. And some of their ulama that I have spoken to do understand this matter. And Allah knows best.

as opposed to deobandis who have less love?? clearly something to do with celebrating mawlid in that comment right there...mesed up the whole article..and the so-called 'balanced' view went right out the window

[HarryMet]

Well it's the problem of the entire ummah that we, amongst other things, failed to convert western people to Islam.
This got nothing to do with sufis, deobandies or any sub-group.
I'd say Deobandies are well above average when it comes to serving Islam. They can't do everything and although it is true jama'at ut tabligh targets muslims first & foremost, if nobody did this work then situation would have been far worse.

Brelwis are disserving Islam so they are out of the equation.

So I don't see the purpose of this text, but we will all agree that nobody is perfect and there is always room for improvement. If it was meant to be a wake-up call, then I wouldn't have targeted any group or at least worded it better.

[HedgeYourBets]

Actually there have been some anthropological studies done on the topic of Western conversion to Islam.

Zebiri's ''British Muslim Converts : Choosing Alternative Lives''

If I can quote some parts of it:

''If one asks to what kind of Islam converts are attracted, the picture is rather complex. It is generally acknowledged that a disproportionate number are attracted to Sufism,117 though it should be remembered that this covers a wide spectrum of tendencies from the perennial philosophical approach of people like René Guénon (1886–1951) and Frithjof Schuon (1907–98),118 to the more popular approach of Shaykh Nazim’s Naqshbandi group, which has attracted a high proportion of converts, both white and Afro-Caribbean.119 True to its historical record of tolerance and flexibility, Sufism can accommodate intellectual as well as anti-intellectual tendencies, and can also attract those who are seeking emotional contact or expression, since Sufi groups often offer a close sense of community and belonging.Not all people who become involved with Islamic mysticism or Sufi groups actually convert to Islam, but those who do become Sufi-oriented Muslims tend to have a certain respect for Islamic traditional scholarship and the classical schools of law.

Not surprisingly, converts reflect the diversity of Muslim religious and political trends; Roald devotes an entire chapter to convert trends, but no research has yet attempted to quantify these tendencies among converts.120''

And then this insightful piece:

''Overall it would appear that converts reproduce the trends already extant among Muslims in their societies,with the proviso that they are less likely to be attracted to the more parochial trends such as, in the British context, the Deobandis and Barelwis. In this respect, they resemble second- and third-generation Muslims, who are increasingly moving away from the Islam of their parents and towards more universal expressions of Islam.''

The author sums up the conclusions that they make by reviewing most of the literature and research done in this area - so for more detail obviously one must consult the original book.

But it is clear the Deobandi movement in essence was a reaction and a defence mechanism against colonialism - at the time this was an invaluable service and one that has been of immense importance. But in today's context, I think the Deobandi narrative has no real place in British Muslim discourse - it is becoming increasingly irrelevant thus confirming its origins as primarily a defensive and insular trend.

Sorry you like Shaykh Laraki seem to be both historically and anthropoloigically inaccurate. Living in the City of Birmingham with one the largest muslim populations in the UK. The mosques with the greatest number of converts one finds are the Ahle Hadith and historically the Maulana Maudoodi inspired and Ikhwani inspired groups are the ones who have done the most amount of work amongst both muslims and non-muslims. Indeed the Uk Islamic Mission and the Fosis have been around since the sixties.

THe group most lacking in their focus on youth historically have been the Barelvis although over the last 10 years they have improved.

[trettegeani]

The walk through deobandi history wasn't meant to justify the conditions as it presently exists but rather to explain why the conditions exist. I agree with needing to change, to recognize the impacts of colonialism then to counteract them, this step takes much self reflection and peering into history. I believe that Deoband and TJ were innovative in their time. They both offered new alternatives in reaction to what was happening in the ground and I feel the greatest sunnah of the Elders of Deoband was not that they established the school but that they reacted to the present circumstances on the ground to do what was best for the Muslim community in their land. I believe it's a misreading of history to claim their biggest sunnah was the establishment of the madarsa and thus it should be along with its existing basis for creation be carbon copied all over the world. This has happened and true to the benefit of millions no doubt. But it's not a magic recipe for all times and all places. We must do what the elders did. They examined their current conditions, did something different from their teachers, were innovative and reacted in the best way they could to their climate. That is their legacy. If we merely copy them in their madrasa format without accounting for current conditions, then if that was the essence of following our elders then the Elders themselves would not have done something their teachers did not do, and Deoband and TJ would never come to exist.

So I agree with changing and reacting to current times. That is the essence of Deoband, but that is somehing that must changed from within the Deobandi tradition itself. The outsiders can only understand their historical context, appreciate their efforts and encourage their growth. History is very important as lived realities are also passed from student to teacher and it can be hard to distinguish between how Islam needs to be presented today while still being true to ones teachers and teachers' teacher who lived in another era.

[HotDolly]

For instance the work of Sayyid Qutb has a lot of traction with the youth and for good reason - he articulates a socially engaged interpretation of Islam with a great emphasis on justice and dignity.

If we are talking about Global impact why are the Salaafis missing from the research study you posted. And historically they were c;lose with the Ahle Hadith although there seems to be difference among them.

[enfoires]

Assalamualaikum,

First of all I would not make any comments. This message should be dealt by the 'ulama in UK such as Allamah Khalid Mahmood (db), and the 'ulama of SA such as Mufti Ebrahim Desai (db).

I can see some posters making comments that can be refuted. Lets not turn towards our opinion and nafs. And pass this message towards the 'ulama of deoband who can deal with this. Inshallah.

[Innockcroff]

i dont know much about tsawwuf so wont go into that - it does seem however that the shuykh he mentioned are well respected among different groups (except you-know-who group : p)

however the criticism on TJ was way off the mark. how does one bring a white guy to india and pakistan and then gather the headbanging kids from the concerts and have them witness his shahadah?
the question was about India and Pakistan not SA or UK. either way let us assume he was talking about UK and SA. why would headbangers even want to witness a white youth taking his shahadah?
why would they care if you tell them that if you do not practice Islam Allah (SWT) will replace you with these people?
they will be 'look i don't really care'.

so whichever country they are in, first you have to make the Muslim's Islamic awareness go up and then you explain this great reprimand from Allah (SWT).

despite all the efforts of Kuffar and their secular henchmen Islam practice in india and pakistan is one the rise. there is an increased number of people attending the mosque, keeping beard, trying to abstain from haram in their daily lives. similarly there is an increase of women wearing hijab/niqab and giving dawah to other sisters.
this is all down to the efforts of jamaats like TJ. cant say mcuh for DI and salafi dawah because never seen them at work in pakistan. most salafis prefer working with TJ.