[kjanyeaz1]

We are often told to integrate. What do they mean? That we must become carbon copies of them? Probably. But why? Why do we need to become just like them, cant we work with them, live next to them, trade with them and just be ourselves, good, honest, reliable, responsible, concerned for their welfare? Why not? Cultures are always evolving Britain for example has changed through out history there were many different sub-cultures all across Britain, all were British and we too can bring our positive Islamic values to British culture and enhance it, strengthen it. In cities we can be the good neighbour who does not disturb our neighbours with loud music and noise, we can be the trustworthy and honest trades person...the person who turns up to work without being hungover from drinking too much the night before, the person who will help the elderly do their shopping or garden. we might want to work towards making Britain great and a place worth visiting.

[Plokiikmol]

Integrate is used very generally and broadly to mean we have to all become like them. I suspect they would always find something new to complain about even if we did 'integrate', because that is how they are.

It can be argued that we are already integrated, and there is nothing wrong in having a Muslim British sub-culture that fits into the dominant culture.

I think Muslims who live in Britain should try to make more effort to learn about its history and its culture and we must try to bring positive values and enhance it. This can be done through education, lectures etc.

[Knongargoapex]

Integration to me is being tolerant of difference within different cultures residing alongside one another, respecting those difference (whether you personally agree to them or not). Sadly most people think integration means 'become one of us'. There should be no difference which to me states intolerance.

I see intolerance in the UK - anything different to the culture here, its like people cannot comprehend! I also experience a hint of conceit. Their way is the best.

Totally different experience in states ... California is very multicultural and people generally accept you for who you are. They don't have a preconceived idea of what one should be like. But I guess that would be due to the vast number of different cultures that one cannot really dominate?

[mynaflzak]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6sxh...eature=related

just listen

4.45 onwards

[AnthonyKing]

as they see everything as compromise simply continues the village syndrome imported from KSA, Mirpur, Jehlam, Gujrat, Sylhet. These communities are rarely known to exhibit a thoughtfull approach to deen or the society they reside in.

Trust me it has nothing to do with people being 'backwards' as they would put it. As brother Abu Zakir mentions, they will find something else to complain about. Lets for a minute forget about my subcontinent background, they still have problems with my accent, that I pronounce words differently and perhaps use a different word to them. Its not like I'm speaking a different language (arguably I guess I am) but the point remains they understand exactly what I am saying yet they feel the need to correct me. Not only the need to correct me, but the need to inform me to start using 'English' words because I am in England. If they can tolerate it on TV when they are watching I don't know, CSI or whatever, why cannot they tolerate my different choice of words on the odd occasion?

I am remained speechless at times.

[regfortruegoo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6sxh...eature=related

just listen

4.45 onwards

we have already integrated
we have to contribute
and you must accept us

integration is a past term

[MexicoCity]

Typical brit .. intolerance

I would agree with the youtube video and say some of us have integrated

[Nidsstese]

for bring it to my attention, perhaps I am superficial

May Allah swt correct the errors in my ways insha'allah

Please keep me in your duas

[Alkanyadela]

Sister
Hayaa
Ofcourse there are exception to the norm.
American muslims are relatively better educated in comparison to the UK immigrant muslims. But this does not mean they fare better!! However we have a good selection of scholars and institute. Each country have their strength and weak points!
Allahualam

[DoctorWeryDolt]

Salamalikum. I think integratoin very bad for muslim in WEst. Integratoin mean we wear small cloth like them and not pray and do haram things like drinking. they want destroy our culture everything. but West people in Islam countries MUST integrated. They compulsory follow our rules, make hijab and not hav christian prayer. This only make umma strong.

[beepbeet]

learn the power of language from people like hamza yusuf ,tariq ramadan, abdul hakim murad
people who are heavily scrutinised vetted and dissected,and very public speakers

we have been advised to do this by non other than shaykh hasan ali nadwi d.b. if we are to live in "the west"..so to speak

buy a dictionary/thesoraus ..what did malcolm x do?

to integrate does not mean to assimilate

by being integral one becomes important/part of

[tomspoumn]

Gain mastery of the national language and become proficient so that you can use it effectively to propagate Islam. Prepare writers and orators and, although you will distance yourself from their religion, do not distance yourself from them. Earn credibility through your daily activities, so much so that if you are entrusted with onerous responsibilities, as was Prophet Yusuf Alayhis Salaam, you do not shirk but embrace all challenges wholeheartedly.

http://engagersindawah.blogspot.co.u...ali-nadwi.html

[Zwnkkvle]

Well Muslims MUST integrate in the West..... but what does mean? Does it mean that we start wearing Bikinis , start drinking Alcohol? NO!


Integration means ..

- Muslims must get good education and become a valuable part of society.

- Muslim girls are not stopped from pursuing higher education and working outside of homes.

- Muslim youth (specially girls) SHOULD be allowed to marry the person of THEIR choice , if they choose to .

- Muslims MUST register their votes and become a part of the society. Political voice of Muslims is must in the West. Some people say "Oh democracy is kuffr...don't take part in it" ... THIS is the attitude that is disastrous for Muslims , and the broader society.

- Idiots like Anjem Chaudry and his followers MUST be stopped by Muslims! Posters like "Islam will dominate Europe" , "Europe , remember 9/11" , or making fun of returning British soldiers is disastrous of Islam and Muslims in the Europe..Such attitude should be STOPPED by all means available.

- Muslims should not set up their own 'ghettos' ..Muslims should take part in wider society as businessmen , traders , teachers , doctors , engineers , soldiers , politicians etc etc ... I saw some people stopping a brother from working in McDonalds because they serve "Pork" ... THIS is called isolation. Discourage this kind of backward mentality. If Christians eat pork in a Christian majority country....why will Allah give us the punishment? So working in McDonalds , Bars , and other commerce centers should not be discouraged.

- Learn the English Language! Most Muslims will be "multilingual" ...and that is a huge plus point as a minority. But learning English should be priority too...

- Follow their laws .. Like France banned Burka...idiot frenchies...but 'follow' it...no problem...but if some one attacks your religious identity..like ban Hijab...then PROTEST in a civil and intelligent manner... Burka is NOT 'Islamic Identity' ...but Hijab is!

- Go in the fields of Law....Muslims MUST MUST go in the field of Law etc..if any company/group of people discriminate against Muslims..Muslim legal experts will DEMOLISH them via justice system. So this is very critical. Don't be like "Oh this is kuffr laws , so it is haraam to learn them" ..This approach is ridiculous!

- Strengthen the community by inter-marriages (not cousins' marriages!) and co-operation etc ...

- Learn from Jews and Sikhs on how to maintain an identity while living away from home (Like sticking to your Language and Culture...)

So these are very critical things I can think of right now.... Islamic Populations in the West must do these things.... Western-Islam is critical in the future of Ummah , Inshallah!

[Trientoriciom]

Wow. I suppose it's important to know what many young Muslims think about integration, it is disturbing.

Auzer,

Well Muslims MUST integrate in the West By who's authority do you command Muslims to integrate?

Ahmed,
You offered some grammatical definitions of 'integration'. Does America follow these same parameters? Are you saying Muslims should integrate, only on their own terms?

[JohnfAclambrJA]

In Britain Multiculturalism is a failure because it is an attempt, by the central state to insert different people together into cities and hope that they all get on. In fact the rise in taxes, economic downturn, debts and unemployment causes pressure on these populations to compete against each other and some people will be tempted and subtly encouraged by people in power to hate other sub-cultures. It is divide and rule. After the French Revolution, sections of the citizens were encouraged by the new humanist and atheist government to slaughter other citizens, the law was altered to make it legal. This is a possibility in all modern states.

Whenever Muslims are told to integrate they should question the person telling them:-

1) What do you mean and what would integration look like in practice?

2) Are all national cultures uniform even without immigrants living there?

3) Are national cultures fluid and ever changing or do they remain the same over long periods?

4) What are the core national cultural characteristics of Britain?

5) How are Muslims outside of the above 4 questions? (so for example if they say that one of the core cultural values of Britain is freedom, we can ask how are Muslim stopping this freedom? Do any of us go around forcing others to be like us? If we protest against certain ideas, cartoons or whatever we are protesting which is a Democratic right, we are not forcing anyone to conform, if some Muslims threaten people with death, that is something other fringe groups and even democratic governments do, so they are no better) (The Zionist State assassinates people and Zionists threaten cartoonists with death as well) .

National cultures in modern democracies are manufactured, it means people in power have used mass media technology and state education to invent a shared culture nationally. Sub-cultures exist everywhere, but they are ignored and only made into problems when someone somewhere wants to cause problems.

Islamic Shariah when it operated allowed non Muslims to live by their own religious laws. They were simply prohibited from money lending and charging interest in their economic transactions and they could not sell other prohibited items in the Muslim markets, and they paid Jizya tax. Islamic Shariah is not about chopping off hands of theives, stoning adulterers to death and forcing everyone to dress a certain way, it is about a people deciding and agreeing to live by the laws of Islam and having the laws apply on them and choosing to conform by them. It is not about a person in power forcing people who do not want to live by the laws to conform, this is tyranny. This is also a false position created by the haters...so they then talk about "we will not have shariah law", as if Muslims want to impose it on people who do not want it. This is such a stupid assertion in a real democratic country it would be dismissed as utterly ridiculous, but we live in countries were these idiots are given a platform as if they make any sense. How can a small minority of Muslims who live as minorities in inner cities ever gain power to impose Shariah Law on the majority? I believe the State created Muslim fringe groups who get media attention with their stupid assertions that they will now make parts of East London into a Sharia Law land, people like Anjum Chaoudry are deliberately doing so to create hostility and conflict.

[Munccoughe]

Allah Ta'ala says in Suratul Baqara verse 120:

وَلَن تَرْضَىٰ عَنكَ الْيَهُودُ وَلَا النَّصَارَىٰ حَتَّىٰ تَتَّبِعَ مِلَّتَهُمْ

"And never will the Jews or the Christians approve of you until you follow their religion....."


I have heard in a bayan the word 'Millah' in this verse also means 'the way of living' . This is very much happening in todays world, they want to 'globalize' everything. They want us Muslims to accept their way of life and eventually their faith.

Allah Ta'ala says in the rest of the Ayah:
Say, "Indeed, the guidance of Allah is the [only] guidance." If you were to follow their desires after what has come to you of knowledge, you would have against Allah no protector or helper.

[Podosinovik]

Ahmed,
You offered some grammatical definitions of 'integration'. Does America follow these same parameters? Are you saying Muslims should integrate, only on their own terms?

no
on our terms
we are free human beings and muslims

you cannot give dawah in an empty room
the shabah and prophets all integrated by allahs command and only with allahs commands

molana hasan ali nadwi has told us to integrate in the best of ways
he did this in 1982 in dewsbury markaz

muslims must learn to communicate

integrate does not mean assimilate
by integration we can influence
for mutual benefit


you are from arab peninsula youre situation is different
we are in england our situation is different

please research molana hasan ali nadwi 1982 dewsbury markaz bayan

[xLQLRcXh]

[QUOTE=Ahmed;789818]




please research molana hasan ali nadwi 1982 dewsbury markaz bayan here is a link: http://engagersindawah.blogspot.co.u...ali-nadwi.html

However making ourselves useful to Britain, does not mean that we completely ignore the laws of Islam, working in bars and serving haram food and drink is not acceptable.

As Muslims in Britain we have built masjids, businesses and homes...but we have not progressed further we are not attracting others to Islam we need to do more, we need to improve ourselves and make ourselves into amazing people. Just smiling, asking people how they are doing, and being someone who wants good for them, improving the look of our cities...will win hearts.

[DoctorTOneery]

[QUOTE=Abu Zakir;789832]

here is a link: http://engagersindawah.blogspot.co.u...ali-nadwi.html

However making ourselves useful to Britain, does not mean that we completely ignore the laws of Islam, working in bars and serving haram food and drink is not acceptable.

As Muslims in Britain we have built masjids, businesses and homes...but we have not progressed further we are not attracting others to Islam we need to do more, we need to improve ourselves and make ourselves into amazing people. Just smiling, asking people how they are doing, and being someone who wants good for them, improving the look of our cities...will win hearts.

I really agree with this point. Its the most important point on the thread.
There will be no more important point than this in this thread.

Lets be honest about this 99% of people came for money.
If you emigrate for the intention of money, then that is what you are going to get.
Its not useful to pretend muslims came here for dawah, hence there is 1% dawah going on in Europe.

Thats the brutal reality that everyone will ignore in this debate.
If the children of the 99% change then things will change.

I think the bloc need to marginalise the extreme elements, like those who living in a foregin country try to enforce shariah.
Forcing shariah in a foreign country is not the correct way to bring about shariah

Going to a foreign country and criticisig the host to the extent they find you rude and insulting is hypocricy.
In actuality, those who do this, should leave, and if they dont, should be thrown out.

They cause the most divisions. And create the most problems for muslims in Europe.

There would be no issue of integration if people listened to the prophet
and dealt with their neighbours nicely and not peed them off.

The reverse would happen, and people would appreciate them here.

[Rememavotscam]

Allah Ta'ala says in Suratul Baqara verse 120:

وَلَن تَرْضَىٰ عَنكَ الْيَهُودُ وَلَا النَّصَارَىٰ حَتَّىٰ تَتَّبِعَ مِلَّتَهُمْ

"And never will the Jews or the Christians approve of you until you follow their religion....."


I have heard in a bayan the word 'Millah' in this verse also means 'the way of living' . This is very much happening in todays world, they want to 'globalize' everything. They want us Muslims to accept their way of life and eventually their faith.

Allah Ta'ala says in the rest of the Ayah:
Say, "Indeed, the guidance of Allah is the [only] guidance." If you were to follow their desires after what has come to you of knowledge, you would have against Allah no protector or helper.

“The hadiths are a source of error except for the Fuqaha.” but not the Quran? sheer hypocricy

what a false assumption about Secular Europe, and then extremely inciteful and misleading quote of the Quran that furthers the false assumption. then based on his false assumption, misleading quote, then even more error in the conclusion.

Europe is not "Jews" and "Christians" and just that. Its not a monolith youve insinuated with your "NON-ERROR" Quran quote. Its hugely more complex, and hugely more diverse in opinion today.
Even within the Jew and Christian context its extremely diverse.

This is probably the worst error quote you could have for this thread. The same shariah enforcing pig-headed numbskulls that love to see things in us v them. A most damaging attitude to this thread flimsily sanctified by the Holy Book.

Using the Quran to further your errors and then putting in bold how you know of errors. What a smug self righteous hypocricy!
How any different to those who say Quran says "slay the infidel where you find them"? False assumption, misleading quote, error in conclusion.

what a hypocricy!