[nabsgood]

1) Im more than happy to listen to the other side inshAllah

2) analysing things objectively is what we all should do inshAllah

4) you should respect the people in authrotity as long as they rule by islam, and ansar ad din clearly are not ruling by any other ideology. they hold the oppinion that graves shoudl be levelled and taht is based on daleel and athaar so shoudlnt we respect that opinion? Why do we have to respect one sides opinion but not the other

5) You cant just make a qiyaas like that, firstly what are you basing them being labelled extreme on? You cant blame them for sending people into the hands of the kuffar, in the last century we have thousands if not millions of murtads dispite most lands being full of sufism and ilm ul kalaam so you cant blame ridaa on others.

Scholars dont have political leadership so cant just go to a country and start smashing graves, where is teh hikmah in that? Ansar ad din do have the political position though and wish to implement the advice of the prophet SAW and they dont care what you or I or the UN world culttural heritage says, they only care about Allah SWT, they only wish to follow the sunnah of the prophet SAW who clearly told us to level graves and not build over them, and that was concerning prophets so what about saints who are less than prophets?

Clearly tehre is superstition in mali that is tantamount to kufr so why oppose the removal of this? Dont you think kufr is a bigger deal than tourist attractions? Isnt shirk a big deal? Isnt it the BIGGEST deal?

* Building tombs on graves is haram, and we abstain from this. But destroying it is the same thing. Both are an insult to the pious, the martyrs, and the Prophets. We say "Assalaamu Alaykum wa Ahlul Quburu", we dont come at them with hammers and axes.

* If agreed by the majority of the ulema and whoever was in charge of the property, then we may proceed with breaking. But for that to even happen, there needs to be correct ideology. The "salafist" anti-sufi ideology merely means replacing one form of deviation with another form; extreme tasawwuf being replaced by extreme-hatred of tasawwuf.

* We have seen what was done in Saudi. Numerous historical places were demolished, most of whom had nothing to do with tombs or graves. It is the same thing here.

* The fake-sufis may commit kuffar by worshipping graves, but atleast they do not come to my backyard or graveyard and start building one by force. Ansar Dine however, go to other people's backyards and start breaking their things.

* All of the above causes fitnah, and leads to the opposite side to also take up arms. This leads to bloodshed, which causes thousands of refugees and dead. The al-Shabaab experience is testament to that.

* Breaking their tombs or objects of devotion in such haste, will only cause them to be polarized. They will now stick even harder to their beliefs. You can never win them over this way.

* There is no proof that any negotiation had taken place, or that any of the custodians of the graves gave their approval. As such, we will look at the available evidence, and consider this a transgression.

* As far as the role of Islamic State goes, from what we have had, tombs were never demolished in the manner we see today. This started only under the Saudi state, not Islamic State or Khilafah.

[replicajoy]

akhi it is simply not true that grave demolitions began with saudi. I have provided countless narrations from classical scholars who advocated this.

Also its not the grave taht we dispise, and of course we have our sunnahs regarding how to behave with graves. The issue is the objects resurrected above the graves.

If Umar RAA dug up prophet danyals grave and moved it then surely this shows that it isnt a disrespect at all but in fact teh way of the salaf. When teh prophet SAW was on his death bed, in serious pain, he took effort to curse the jews and christians for taking the prphets graves as places of worship so clearly this is an important issue. what evidence is there supporting teh construction of erected tombs? The prophet SAW commanded Ali to destroy the tombs. With all this evidence FOR destorying tombs and NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER for erecting it, and all the classical scholars who supported demolishing graves, surely teh sensible thing for people to do, if they love the scholars of old as they claim, surely demolishing graves is teh right thing

cant you accept taht the muslim world is in a right state, its NOT OK how it currently is, so if people want to cling on to their rubbish whetehr it be mystoical doors that end the world, tombs for pilgrimage, secular courts, or colonial languages, surely we shoudl advicate the removal of this nonsense. Surely noone can surely believe we are ok how we are and teh mali rebels are somehow causing trouble and should leave the mulsim lands to do what they are currently doing.

[satthackacibe]

akhi it is simply not true that grave demolitions began with saudi. I have provided countless narrations from classical scholars who advocated this.

Also its not the grave taht we dispise, and of course we have our sunnahs regarding how to behave with graves. The issue is the objects resurrected above the graves.

If Umar RAA dug up prophet danyals grave and moved it then surely this shows that it isnt a disrespect at all but in fact teh way of the salaf. When teh prophet SAW was on his death bed, in serious pain, he took effort to curse the jews and christians for taking the prphets graves as places of worship so clearly this is an important issue. what evidence is there supporting teh construction of erected tombs? The prophet SAW commanded Ali to destroy the tombs. With all this evidence FOR destorying tombs and NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER for erecting it, and all the classical scholars who supported demolishing graves, surely teh sensible thing for people to do, if they love the scholars of old as they claim, surely demolishing graves is teh right thing

cant you accept taht the muslim world is in a right state, its NOT OK how it currently is, so if people want to cling on to their rubbish whetehr it be mystoical doors that end the world, tombs for pilgrimage, secular courts, or colonial languages, surely we shoudl advicate the removal of this nonsense. Surely noone can surely believe we are ok how we are and teh mali rebels are somehow causing trouble and should leave the mulsim lands to do what they are currently doing.

In your previous posts you said it doesnt matter about scholars because they dont have "political leadership". So why now quote scholars? There are scholars both for and against smashing tombs. We cannot simply pick and choose. That is what ghair-muqallids do, which is why you're for that position. And, if Tawassul is akin to christians/jews worshipping their prophets, then salafi's extreme admiration for Imam Ibn Taymiyya is no different. Muslims today arent any better than those before us. But today, some muslims think they can be more pure than anyone else. We need to follow the example of our predecessors (imams and khilafah), and we need to weigh all sides of the scholars. Most scholars dont agree with this, infact its a topic thats rarely even discussed. We should do what is FARZ, not what is nafl/mubah. If it was needed, then there'd be thousands calling for it in South Asia, where there are scores of tombs/shrines. And there would be thousands of Talibs and Muqallids to follow their command.

All true muslims believe building them is wrong, because it can lead to shirk. And shirk doesnt drop from the sky, it comes from the misconceptions of the mind. If we can rectify the problems of the mind (ideology), then it doenst matter whether a tomb is there or not, people will not commit the shirk. For the State, they cannot look at everything from a utopian POV, if that were the case we would all be doing things left and right. I cannot just go outside and start asking "where can i buy slaves, concubines"? I have to cope with reality, and my ENVIRONMENT. What they did by breaking the tombs is create problem for themselves, not me. I dont even care for the graves. There's no point in taking this discussion further. Ive made my point, and you've made yours. Mine had more to do with the sustenance of the Islamic State, rather then the DREAM of a utopian version of it.

[shinesw]

wa alaykum salaam akhi

you cannot use "there would be thousands of scholars doing it" as an evidence, nowhere in time history of islam has any major scholar utilised this as an evidence. Our religion is clear in terms of its sources and evidences

I said scholars CANT smash tombs because they dont have the authority. The new rulers in Mali are RULERS so they have the authrotity to do it. Definitely we have many classical scholars including the four imams advocating smashing graves and how many scholars do you have who have been opposed to the smashing of graves? the muslim world is rampant with misguidance now, dont look to what present day muslims are doing, look to the likes of ibn hajr al asqalani, ibn taimiyyah, imam shaafi, ibn kathir, imam abu hanifah, imam nawawi and so on. these are our references. not modern day mulsims. you cant expect me to oppose the demolition of graves on the basis that the likes of the ahbash, haqqanis and barelwiyyah dont oppose it (unfortunately they form majorities now). Deobandi ulema and salafi ulema oppose it.

How would salafis in their attitude towards ibn taimiyyah fall foul of the hadeeth concerning jews and christians taking their graves as places of worship? What act of worship do salafis give to ibn taimiyyah? Sajda? tawassul? Khawf? Rajaa'? Nadhr? we dont give any sort of worship to ibn taimiyyah, he is a human being. the salafis demolish the house of shaikh muhammad ibn abdal wahhab to show that he is nothing, he is not a deity, his house means nothing, its just bricks. whatmatters is his legacy, which can be found in his biography and his works. As for his soul, it is awaiting judgement and he is in no position to be helping anyone else. And this is one of our most beloved shaikhs. we are all nothing. Allah can crush us like dust. Do you really think tehse monuments mean anything? Have you read the condition of mali? How people are fleeing "the islamists" because they miss their french secular education and ability to commit haraam which shariah prohibbits? What good does this tawagheet do them? It has brought nothing to Mali except superstition

[pavlik]

wa alaykum salaam akhi

you cannot use "there would be thousands of scholars doing it" as an evidence, nowhere in time history of islam has any major scholar utilised this as an evidence. Our religion is clear in terms of its sources and evidences

I said scholars CANT smash tombs because they dont have the authority. The new rulers in Mali are RULERS so they have the authrotity to do it. Definitely we have many classical scholars including the four imams advocating smashing graves and how many scholars do you have who have been opposed to the smashing of graves? the muslim world is rampant with misguidance now, dont look to what present day muslims are doing, look to the likes of ibn hajr al asqalani, ibn taimiyyah, imam shaafi, ibn kathir, imam abu hanifah, imam nawawi and so on. these are our references. not modern day mulsims. you cant expect me to oppose the demolition of graves on the basis that the likes of the ahbash, haqqanis and barelwiyyah dont oppose it (unfortunately they form majorities now). Deobandi ulema and salafi ulema oppose it.

How would salafis in their attitude towards ibn taimiyyah fall foul of the hadeeth concerning jews and christians taking their graves as places of worship? What act of worship do salafis give to ibn taimiyyah? Sajda? tawassul? Khawf? Rajaa'? Nadhr? we dont give any sort of worship to ibn taimiyyah, he is a human being. the salafis demolish the house of shaikh muhammad ibn abdal wahhab to show that he is nothing, he is not a deity, his house means nothing, its just bricks. whatmatters is his legacy, which can be found in his biography and his works. As for his soul, it is awaiting judgement and he is in no position to be helping anyone else. And this is one of our most beloved shaikhs. we are all nothing. Allah can crush us like dust. Do you really think tehse monuments mean anything? Have you read the condition of mali? How people are fleeing "the islamists" because they miss their french secular education and ability to commit haraam which shariah prohibbits? What good does this tawagheet do them? It has brought nothing to Mali except superstition

For me its not so much an issue of removing the domes and structures brothers, its more an issue of how people are doing it with hammers and agression like they are destroying an idol, not like they are removing something from a Muslim's grave.

If they want to do it they should do it respectfully to a Muslim's grave and get a builder to do it in the politest manner that they can.

They are people's graves, people mustn't do such things with the contempt that they are doing it, especially as in many of these cases they have grand children still alive.