[L0KoxewQ]

Salaams

In another thread we were discussing this event:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...tu-mosque.html

And it got me thinking. Do you disagree with levelling graves (I'm talking talking in terms of whether it is the most hikmah way of getting rid of them, but whether you agree with the act of getting rid of them).

My question is 1 what have the major ulema said that you guys follow on levelling graves?

and 2, do you consider it legitimate that they are following these hadeeths and statements from the 4 imaams and therefore this is an act of love for Allah SWT and the prophet SAW. If not, what is your counter evidences and explanations to the following

Statements from the Hanafi Scholars 1
"It is prohibited to strengthen (or cement, reinforce) the graves."[Kitab al-athar,Imam Muhammed]
Imam Sarkhasi says in al-Masbut,"Do not reinforce the graves because its forbiddance is proven from the Messenger of Allah sallallahu alaihiwasallam."[Al-Masbut by Imam Sarkhasi v.2, p.26]
Qadhi Khan says in his Fatawa, "The graves should not be strengthened and neither should tombs and structures be built over them because its negation has been related from Abu Hanifah."[Fatawa Qadhi Khan, v.1 p.194]
Imam Kasani says,"It is detestable to strengthen the graves and Imam Abu Hanifah considered it detestable to build tombs and similar structures over the graves. It contains wastage of wealth. Whereas there is no harm in sprinkling of water over the grave but it is related from Imam Yusuf that even sprinkling of water is detestable because the grave cements due to it."[Badai' as-Sinai' by Imam Kasani v.1 p.320]
Mulla Ali Qari al-Hanafi writes,"The prohibition of lighting up lamps upon the graves has come because it is from the wastage of wealth, and fbecause in them are the signs of Hellfire and because it contains glorification of the graves.”[Murqah of Mulla Al Qari]
Qadhi Ibrahim writes mentioning the foundations of those who worship graves,"Nowadays some deviant people have started making Hajj of the graves and have established manners (or rituals) for it. And from those matters that oppose thereligion and Shari'ah is that people express helplessness and humility near the graves, and light lamps upon them. To offer Chadar upon the graves, to assign a guard for them, to kiss them and to seek provision and children near them, all these matters have no proof from the Shari'ah Islamiyyah." [Ja' al-Haq p.302]
Allamah Haskafi al-Hanafi says,"Those offerings and vows that are taken by themasses upon the graves, be they in the form of cash or oil, then upon consensus it is falsehood and forbidden."[Darral Mukhtar by Haskafi v.2, p.139]

Imam ash-Shafii said: "I prefer that the soil used for a grave be no more than that dug for that grave. I like to see a grave raised above the ground the length of a hand or so. I prefer not to erect a structure over a grave or to whitewash it, for indeed this resembles decoration and vanity, and death is not the time for either of these things. I have never seen the graves of the Muhajirin or Ansar plastered. I have seen the Muslim authorities destroying structures in graveyards, and I have not seen any jurists object to this."[Kitabul Umm]


Imam ash-Shaafi’i said: “I detest that a creature [of Allaah (subhaanahu wa ta’aala)] be sanctified to a degree that his tomb becomes like a mosque [to which Salaat is performed] the thing that leads people astray.” [Al-’Umm (Vol. 1, Pp. 246)]

Ibn Hajar al Haythami As-Shafi'i said in his az-Zawajir: (This is a collection of legal verdicts, pubhshed when king Al-Zahir decided to destroy all the buildings in the graveyards. Coeval Islamic scholars collectively supported him saying to do so was incumbent upon the ruler.-> need confirmation)
"We should not hesitate to destroy mosques and domes built over graves. These are worse than the mosque of adDirar, because these things are erected in disobedience to the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him. The Prophet, peace be upon him, has forbidden this and has ordered the destruction of raised graves. Every lamp or lantern placed over a grave must be removed. It is not correct to stop at a grave or make a vow at it. " as quoted in Fiqh-us-Sunnah

Volume 004 : Funerals and Dhikr. Fiqh 4.068.
---------------------------------------------
Section : Making Humps over Graves and Flattening Them.

Jurists agree that it is permissible either to make a little hump over the grave or to flatten it. At-Tabari said: "I dislike it for a grave to be prepared in any way other than these two: it should be either levelled with the ground or raised with a hump over it, but no higher than one hand, as is the common practice among Muslims. Levelling the grave differs from flattening it completely. Jurists differ concerning which of these two methods is best. Al-Qadi 'Iyad has reported from the major scholars that it is best to make a hump over the grave because Sufyan an-Nammar told him that he had seen the grave of the Prophet, peace be upon him, with a hump over it." (Bukhari) This is the opinion of Abu Hanifah, Malik, Ahmad, al-Mazani, and many scholars of the Shafi'i school. Ash-Shafi'i's opinion, however, is that because of the order of the Prophet, peace be upon him, levelling is best.


1. Hazrat Jabbir [r.a] narrated that Prophet had forbidden ... from building structures and sitting over the graves.

[Muslim, Tirmidi, Mishkaat]

Imam Nawawi [r.h] writes in the sharah of this hadees:

"To build a structure over the the grave if its owned, then its makrooh and if its common maqbara [shrine] then it's haram. It has been clearly mentioned by Imam Shafi [r.h] and others and Imam Shafi [r.h] said in his Kitaab al-Umm that I saw the Imams in Makkah ordering the removal of the buildings over the graves and this is supported by the hadees."

[Sharh Saheeh Muslim vol 1 page 312]


2. Imam Muhammed bin Hasan [r.h] says:

"It is makrooh to make the graves solid...because Prophet [s.a.w] had forbidden this and this is our madhab and this is also the view of Imam Abu Hanifa [r.h]."

[Kitaab al-Athaar Imam Muhammed page 96-97]

Note: When the word "Makrooh"is used by Imam Abu Hanifa [r.h] and the salaf, it means haram and makrooh-e-tahreemi.


3. It says in Fatawa Alamgeeri [r.h]:

"To build a strucure over the grave is makrooh".


4. Allamah ibn Abideen [r.h] says:

"I am not aware of anyone who has allowed of building the structure [over the graves]."

[Shaami vol 1 page 101]


5. Qadi Sanaullah Pani Pati [r.h] says:

"To build large structures over the graves of Awliya and to lighten the candles etc are haram."


6. Hazrat Abul Hiyaj al-Assadi [r.h] says: [he was an officer in the army of Hazrat Ali [r.a],

"Hazrat Ali [r.a] told me that shouldnt I send you for a task that Prophet [s.a.w] sent me for, and that is to not leave any picture, statue, and dont leave any grave but to level it to the ground."

[Muslim, Tirmidi, Mishkaat]

Note: Here to level it to the ground means the length that is prescribed by the Sharia.


7. Mullah Ali Qari [r.h] went as far to say:

"It is wajib to demolish the the structures over graves even if its masjid"


8. Imam Syed Muhammed Alusi [r.h] says:

"..it is wajib to remove the high graves and large structures over the graves because they are more dangerous than Masjid Zarrar...and it is wajib to remove the lightening that is done over the graves [of Awliya].."

[Rooh-al-Maani vol 15 page 219]

9. Hafiz ibn Qayyam [r.h] says:

"It is wajib to remove them [the structures over the graves]." (source?)

10. Hafiz ibn Hajjar Makki al-Shafi [r.h] says:

"It is wajib to remove the structures and domes over the graves".

[Kitaab-al-Zawajir page 163]


Imam Qurtubi says “Therefore, the Muslims went to great lengths to block the tendency to do so at the grave of the Prophet (saws). They raised the dirt walls around it high, completely surrounding it and blocking off the entrances to it. Then they feared that the location of his grave might be turned into a direction for prayer, because it was in the direction the worshippers face and some of them might get the idea that facing it was an act of worship. For this reason, they built two walls at the northern corners of the grave and placed them at a slant so that they would form a triangle with on of its corners pointing to the North. In this way, no one could be able to directly face the grave while making his prayer.“
[al-Mufhim lima Ashkal min Talkis Kitâb Muslim (2/128)]

Imam Malik (may Allah have mercy on him) was asked about a stranger who comes to the grave of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) each day. He said, ‘That is not right,’ and quoted the hadith, ‘O Allah, do not make my grave an idol that is worshipped.’”[al-Jami’ li’l-Bayan by Ibn Rushd Classed as sahih by al-Albani in Tahdhir al-Sajid min Ittikhadh al-Qubur Masajid, p. 24-26.]


Ibn Rushd said: “So he regarded it as makruh to pass by it a great deal to send salam on him, and to come there every day, lest the grave become like a mosque to which people come every day to pray. The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) forbade that when he said, ‘O Allah, do not make my mosque an idol.’”[al-Bayan wa’l-Tahsil by Ibn Rushd, 18/444-445.]

Al-Qadi ‘Iyad was asked about people of Madinah who stand by the grave one or more times a day, and they send salams and make du’a’ for a while. He said, “I have not heard of this from any of the fuqaha’, and nothing is good for the latter generations of this ummah except that which was good for its first generations. I have not heard that any of the first generations of the ummah used to do that.”[Al-Shifa bi Ta’rif Huquq al-Mustafa, 2/676.

[dWSOj26H]

go to that gumbad e khzra thread. view of deobandi ulema is given there. you can ask someone to translate it from urdu to english.

[attractiveweb]

continued:

Hafidh Ibn Kathir explained the hadith "(Allah has cursed the Jews and the Christians who took the graves of their Prophets and righteous people as places of worship) Warning against what they did. We have reported about the Commander of the faithful `Umar bin Al-Khattab that when he found the grave of Danyal (Daniel) in Iraq during his period of rule, he gave orders that news of this grave should be withheld from the people, and that the inscription containing mention of battles etc., that they found there should be buried.[Tafsir Ibn Kathir]

From Sahih Muslim


Chapter 47: FORBIDDANCE TO BUILD MOSQUES ON THE GRAVES AND DECORATING THEM WITH PICTURES AND FORBIDDANCE TO USE THE GRAVES AS MOSQUES

Book 004, Number 1076:
'A'isha reported: Umm Habiba and Umm Salama made a mention before the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) of a church which they had seen in Abyssinia and which had pictures in it. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: When a pious person amongst them (among the religious groups) dies they build a place of worship on his grave, and then decorate it with such pictures. They would be the worst of creatures on the Day of judgment in the sight of Allah.

Book 004, Number 1079:
'A'isha reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said during his illness from which he never recovered: Allah cursed the Jews and the Christians that they took the graves of their prophets as mosques. She ('A'isha) reported: Had it not been so, his (Prophet's) grave would have been in an open place, but it could not be due to the fear that it may not be taken as a mosque.
Book 004, Number 1080:
Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Let Allah destroy the Jews for they have taken the graves of their apostles as places of worship.
Book 004, Number 1081:
Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Let there be curse of Allah upon the Jews and the Christians for they have taken the graves of their apostles as places of worship.
Book 004, Number 1082:
'A'isha and Abdullah reported: As the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) was about to breathe his last, he drew his sheet upon his face and when he felt uneasy, he uncovered his face and said in that very state: Let there be curse upon the Jews and the Christians that they have taken the graves of their apostles as places of worship. He in fact warned (his men) against what they (the Jews and the Christians) did.
Book 004, Number 1083:
Jundub reported: I heard from the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) five days before his death and he said: I stand acquitted before Allah that I took any one of you as friend, for Allah has taken me as His friend, as he took Ibrahim as His friend. Had I taken any one of my Ummah as a friend, I would have taken Abu Bakr as a friend. Beware of those who preceded you and used to take the graves of their prophets and righteous men as places of worship, but you must not take graves as mosques; I forbid you to do that.

Chapter 199: COMMANDMENT IN REGARD TO THE LEVELLING OF THE GRAVE
Book 004, Number 2114:
Thumama b. Shafayy reported: When we were with Fadala b. 'Ubaid in the country of the Romans at a place (known as) Rudis, a friend of ours died. Fadala b. 'Ubaid ordered to prepare a grave for him and then it was levelled; and then he said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) commanding (us) to level the grave.
Book 004, Number 2115:
Abu'l-Hayyaj al-Asadi told that 'Ali (b. Abu Talib) said to him: Should I not send you on the same mission as Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) sent me? Do not leave an image without obliterating it, or a high grave without levelling It. This hadith has been reported by Habib with the same chain of transmitters and he said: (Do not leave) a picture without obliterating it.
Chapter 200: IT IS FORBIDDEN TO PLASTER THE GRAVE OR CONSTRUCTING ANYTHING OVER IT
Book 004, Number 2116:
Jabir said: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) forbade that the graves should be plastered or they be used as sitting places (for the people), or a building should be built over them.
Book 004, Number 2118:
Jabir said that he was forbidden to build pucca graves. ( Can I have an alternate translation?)


The quoted of this articles are taken from the book "Kalimah Go Mushrik"

Clarification of Ahnaf’s use of words:

Haram: This is something that is forbidden by Quran, or Hadith Mutawatir or Mashur, and his author is a sinner by doing this action.

Makruh Tahrimi: That is something that is like Haram in punishment, meaning his author is a sinner by doing this action. The only difference is that this forbiddance is established by Khabar Ahad. So for Ahnaf, wearing gold and silk for men, doing Nikah of Tahlil (for the purpose of making woman legal to the first husband) are Makruh Tahrimi as they are forbidden by Khabar Ahad and not by Quran or Hadith Mutawatir.

Makruh Tanzihi: This is the forbiddance whose author is not sinful, yet leaving this action will give reward, like eating and drinking standing or other actions.

When Ahnaf mention the word Makruh in an absolute way, then mean it is Makruh Tahrimi. Ibn Abidin said in his “Radul Muhtar”, Matlab fil Karahiyah At-Tahrimiyah wa Tanzihiyah:

“The Makruh in this chapter is of two types, one of them is the Makruh Tahrimi and it is the one intended when mentioned in an absolute way”

And this has also been mentioned in “Fathul Qadir” of ibnul Humam v 2 p 114.

So whenever Ahnaf say that for Imam Abu Hanifah, a matter is Makruh, it will mean it is Makruh Tahrimi, unless it is specified that it is Makruh Tanzihi. And also we see than many scholars

Muhammad ibnul Hasan Ash-Shaybani wrote in his “Kitab ul Athar”, Bab Tasneemul Qubur wa Tajsisuha:

“And we do not see that one should add more (mud on the grave) than what came from it, and we consider it Makruh to do Tajsis (plastering of the grave) or to coat it with clay or that a mosque should be established upon it or that something should be written on it, and using baked bricks to built on it or to be put inside the grave is Makruh, and we do not see any wrong in sprinkling water on it, and this is the saying of Abu Hanifah (rah)”

Mahmud Al-Alusi said in his “Ruh ul Ma’ani” v 15 p 238:

“There is consensus on the fact that among the greatest forbidden matters and cause of Shirk is to pray close to them (graves) and to take them as places of worship (mosques), or to build upon it, and it is obligatory to rush to destroy them (mosques built on graves) and to destroy the domes that are on the graves, as they are worse than the mosque of Dhirar, because they are built in disobedience to the Prophet (saw), and it is obligatory to remove the torches and lamps that are on graves, and it is not permissible to make a Waqf of them and vows upon them”

Mahmud Al-Alusi said about the story of Kahf and people who base on it to justify building on graves of saints:

“And people have taken this as a proof for permitting building on graves of saints and turning them into mosques and praying in them…This saying is pure falsehood, corruption and evil. Ahmad, Abu Dawud, At-Tirmidhi, An-Nasai, ibn Majah narrated from ibn Abbas that the Messenger of Allah (saw) said: “May Allah curse the women visiting graves, those who make graves upon them and put lamps upon it”

Al-Marghinani said in his “Hidayah” v 2 p 100:

“And it is Makruh to use baked bricks and wood, because this enters in the ruling of building”

Ibnul Humam said in his “Fath ul Qadir”, explanation of “Al-Hidayah”:

“Abu Hanifah (rah) considered it Makruh to build on graves, even if they are not known with signs, and Abu Yusuf (rah) considered it Makruh to put any writing on it because of what Jabir, may Allah be pleased with him, narrated from the Prophet (saw): “Do not perform Tajsis (plastering) of graves, do not build over them, do not sit and write on them”

Ibnul Humam said about the Hadith of ‘Ali that the Prophet (saw) ordered him to level graves:

“This is because of what they used to do like elevating graves and building beautiful and elevated constructions over them”

‘Abdullah ibn Ahmad An-Nasafi sais in his “Kanz ud Daqaiq” v 2 p 194:

“They (graves) should not be elevated nor plastered”

Ibn Nujaym said in explanation in his “Bahr ur Raiq”:

“Because of the Hadith of Jabir that the Messenger of Allah (saw) forbade to do Tajsis (plastering) of graves, to sit on them, to build over them and write on them”

Qadhi Khan said his “Fatawa” v 1 p 93:

“And graves should not be plastered because of what is reported from the Prophet (saw) that he forbade Tajsis (plastering), Tafdid (putting silver on it), building over the grave…because of what is narrated from Abu Hanifah (rah) that graves should not be plastered nor coated with clay, nor any construction should be elevated on it.”

It is written in “Fatawa Alamgiri” v 1 p 166:

“And the grave should be made convex from a hand span, and it should not be made in square form nor plastered, and there is no harm in sprinkling water on it, and it is Makruh to build on graves, to sit or sleep on them”

Al-Hasakafi said in his “Durul Mukhtar” v 1 p 125:

“And they (graves) should not be plastered because of its forbiddance (nahi)”

Ibn ‘Abidin said in his “Radul Muhtar” v 1 p 601:

“As for building on them (graves), I have not seen anyone allowing this”

Al-‘Ayni said in his “Binayah Sharh Hidayah”:

“And they should not be coated with gypsum, nor should there be any construction over it, because this is for solidification and beautification”

Al-Kasani said in his “Badai” v 1 p 372:

“It is narrated from the Prophet (saw) that he forbade that there should any resemblance between graves and populated areas, and baked bricks and wood are for populated areas.”

Qadhi Ibrahim Al-Halabi said in “Halabi Al-Kabeer” p 599:

“It is Makruh to do Tajsis (plastering) of graves, and to coat them with clay, and this is what the three Imams (Abu Hanifah and his two students Abu Yusuf and Muhammad ibnul Hasan) said because of what Jabir narrated…and from Abu Hanifah, it is Makruh to build on them constructions like houses or domes or similar to them because of the precedent Hadith”

Siraj ud Din said in his “Fatawa Sirajiyah” p 24:

“It is Makruh to build on graves”

Abu Layth As-Samarqandi said in his “Fatawa Nawazil” p 82:

“It is Makruh to do Tajsis of graves, to coat them with clay, to build on them, to write on them or to mark them by putting a sign on them”

Ahmad ibn Muhammad Al-Qaduri said in his “Qaduri” p 60:

“And using baked bricks and wood is Makruh”

Abu Bakr ibn ‘Ali al-Haddad said in his “Jawahir An-Nayrah” v 1 p 133:

“It is Makruh to coat graves with clay and to do Tajsis (plastering) of them, to build on them, to write on them because of his (saw) saying: Do not do Tajsis of graves, do not build on them and do not sit on them”

‘Ubaydullah ibn Mas’ud said in his “Sharh Wiqayah” v 1 p 240:

“And using baked bricks and wood is Makruh”

At-Tahtawi wrote in his explanation of “Maraqi Al-Falah” p 335:

“The three (Abu Hanifah and his two students) said that they (graves) should not be plastered because of the saying of Jabir that the Messenger of Allah (saw) forbade…And the forbiddance of the Prophet (saw) indicates that what they have mentioned is Makruh Tahrimi”

Sayid Murtadha Az-Zubaydi said in his “’Uqud Al-Jawahir Al-Munifah” v 1 p 103:

“The Bayan of the narration shows that it is Makruh to do Tajsis (plastering of graves)”

As-Sarkhasi wrote in his “Mabsut” v 2 p 62:

“He forbade doing Tajsis of graves”

Qadhi Ibrahim Al-Hanafi said in his “Majalis ul Abrar” p 129:

“And the domes built on graves, it is obligatory to destroy them because they have been built in disobedience and opposition to the Messenger (saw) , and every construction that is built in disobedience and opposition to the Messenger (saw) deserves more to be destroyed than the mosque of Dhirar.”

Ala ud Din As-Samarqandi said as mentioned in “Tuhfatul Fuqaha” v 1 p 400:

“The Sunnah concerning the grave is that it should be convex, not in a square form, it should not be coated with clay, nor plastered, and Abu Hanifah consider it Makruh to build on graves”

Hasan Ash-Shurunbulali wrote in “Nur ul Idah” p 153:

“And baked bricks and wood is Makruh…and it is forbidden (Haram) to built on graves for beatification and Makruh if it is for solidification after burial”

Qadhi Thanaullah PaniPati wrote in his “Ma la Buda Minhu” p 67:

“And what is done at graves of saints, building elevated constructions, illuminating lamps, and similar matters are Haram or Makruh”

Mulla Ali Qari wrote in his “Mirqat” v 1 p 414 about the Hadith mentioning innovation of misguidance:

“And this is what the Imams condemned like the building on graves and their Tajsis (plastering)”

So these quotations are clear that the Madhab of Abu Hanifah is that it is forbidden to plaster graves, to build domes on them.


May Allah send Salah and Salam on the Prophet (saw), his household, his companions and those who follow them

Compiled by Ali Hassan Khan

[hygtfrdes]

A relative of a local imam (religious leader), said he had spoken to members of Ansar Dine and "they wanted to show that it is not the end of the world" when the door is opened.
So looks like these people believe in things like a mosque door opening causing th eworld to end. Is this extreme soofi beliefs?

[diegogo]

Copying a bunch of half quoted distorted texts without any context nor rules of the madhab nor knowing the wholesome view of the madhab and not even concerned with the possibility of difference of opinion, only proves the salafite ignorance you dwell in.

[Roker]

So looks like these people believe in things like a mosque door opening causing th eworld to end. Is this extreme soofi beliefs?

How are those "extreme soofi beliefs"? What does their superstition have to do with Sufism? Such a belief is corrupt, there is no doubt about that; but to say that it is from the "extreme soofi beliefs" is laying a heinous charge. If you can prove that any Sufi order or group espouses such a belief, then do so. Otherwise, keep your insinuations to yourself.

An "extreme soofi [belief]" would be to make haraam what is makrooh and make fardh what is sunnah.

[foodselfdourileka]

How are those "extreme soofi beliefs"? What does their superstition have to do with Sufism? Such a belief is corrupt, there is no doubt about that; but to say that it is from the "extreme soofi beliefs" is laying a heinous charge. If you can prove that any Sufi order or group espouses such a belief, then do so. Otherwise, keep your insinuations to yourself.

An "extreme soofi [belief]" would be to make haraam what is makrooh and make fardh what is sunnah.

calm down bro I agree taht these arent real sufis. I mean tehre are two types of sufis right? sufis who concern themselves with khair e.g. suhbah, tazkiyatun nafs, salawat, dhickr etc, then you have the extreme sufis who believe their shaikh goes to pray at makka 5 times a day and things like that.

If you prefer me to use a different term to extreme sufi I will akh but calm down and dont be so harsh, I havent intentionally insulted you I thought that this was how the brothers here distinguish between real sufis and charlatans

[seatlyled]

Copying a bunch of half quoted distorted texts without any context nor rules of the madhab nor knowing the wholesome view of the madhab and not even concerned with the possibility of difference of opinion, only proves the salafite ignorance you dwell in.

bro Im open to be convinced so please give full texts and counter explanations and other quotes if you feel tehse dont accurately reflect the view of ahlas sunnah or are a difference of oppinion. Ive clearly quoted many of the well respected scholars of ahlas sunnah. This thread is about seeing if this is 1 totally 2 valid difference of oppinion 3 permissable. Ive provided evidence from teh side of it being totally haraam so feel free to provide what you have as a counter evidence inshAllah

[Poothevokprot]

go to that gumbad e khzra thread. view of deobandi ulema is given there. you can ask someone to translate it from urdu to english.

can anyone translate it into english please?

do you have a link?

[T1ivuQGS]

calm down bro I agree taht these arent real sufis. I mean tehre are two types of sufis right? sufis who concern themselves with khair e.g. suhbah, tazkiyatun nafs, salawat, dhickr etc, then you have the extreme sufis who believe their shaikh goes to pray at makka 5 times a day and things like that.

If you prefer me to use a different term to extreme sufi I will akh but calm down and dont be so harsh, I havent intentionally insulted you I thought that this was how the brothers here distinguish between real sufis and charlatans

brother please stop talking about sufism asap. you have absolutely no idea what is sufism and what is shariah. you are just hurting people's feelings by your uneducated opinions.

[Sotmoigma]

brother please stop talking about sufism asap. you have absolutely no idea what is sufism and what is shariah. you are just hurting people's feelings by your uneducated opinions.

this is just a statement without backing it up with anything

I can make the same sort of statement

can you stop talking about salafis please, your talking without knowledge and hurting peopels feelings. will you listen?

[jenilopaz]

calm down bro I agree taht these arent real sufis. I mean tehre are two types of sufis right? sufis who concern themselves with khair e.g. suhbah, tazkiyatun nafs, salawat, dhickr etc, then you have the extreme sufis who believe their shaikh goes to pray at makka 5 times a day and things like that.

If you prefer me to use a different term to extreme sufi I will akh but calm down and dont be so harsh, I havent intentionally insulted you I thought that this was how the brothers here distinguish between real sufis and charlatans

No, there aren't two kinds of Sufis and you contradicted yourself in this post by saying that they're not "real sufis" then saying that there are two kinds of sufis. You're confounding "extreme" Sufis with fake Sufis and charlatans. If an extremist Sufi isn't a Sufi, then it follows that an extremist Muslim isn't a Muslim, when both claims are far from the truth.

Either one is a true Sufi or one isn't. Those that hold such beliefs like the one you mentioned may have nothing to do with Sufism so why even bring up this association? There are many Animists in Africa and there are many Hindus in India. Both Hindus and Animists influenced Muslims in their region and it wasn't Sufi belief that turned them to bid'ah, but Animist and Hindu belief respectively. Now, fake Sufis capitalized on these deviated beliefs for their own agenda but again, this is not the cause - that is to say, these beliefs are not a result of Sufism, but of superstition.

It is unjust to attribute these weird un-Islamic beliefs to Sufism just how it would be unjust to attribute any Muslim on Muslim violence to Salafis.

EDIT:

As an example, you saying that these weird beliefs are somehow "extreme soofi beliefs" would be akin to a non-Muslim saying that acid-throwing is Islamic belief.

[xgnuwdd]

wa alaykum salaam

ok brother well there are plenty of people including well respected "shaikhs" who have very deviant beliefs who call themselves sufi. What shall I call these group if I shouldnt call them sufis?

Will you give the same courtesy to salafis?

[tyclislavaify]

make sure we keep this thread on track btw inshAllah as I wish to understand what people think on teh main topic of the thread

[ariniaxia]

wa alaykum salaam

ok brother well there are plenty of people including well respected "shaikhs" who have very deviant beliefs who call themselves sufi. What shall I call these group if I shouldnt call them sufis?

Will you give the same courtesy to salafis?

A lot of charlatans call themselves Sufi, that is true, but a lot of charlatans don't call themselves Sufi but are revered as shuyookh and propose weird beliefs. Even Salafis do that (Usama Hasan being a prime example) but you don't see many of us claiming that he is any model Salafi or represents Salafi beliefs. Do you think it is fair for us to say that Usama Hasan's beliefs about evolution are "extreme [salafi] beliefs"?

And I don't say all Salafis are bad nor do I attribute the beliefs or actions committed by a minority of Salafis to Salafism at large.

[chechokancho]

this is just a statement without backing it up with anything

I can make the same sort of statement

can you stop talking about salafis please, your talking without knowledge and hurting peopels feelings. will you listen?

you want proof regarding some sufi beliefs? how will you understand the proofs without fulfilling the pre requisites? sufism is suhba based not google based.
cant say the same for salafism who you brought into the discussion.

[Shipsyspeepay]

this is just a statement without backing it up with anything

I can make the same sort of statement

can you stop talking about salafis please, your talking without knowledge and hurting peopels feelings. will you listen?

Brother Dawud,


Try to be a little bit more mature in your approach to these things.


Hudhaifah narrates that Rasulullah said: Do not imitate others and start saying if others treat us well, we will treat them well, and if they do wrong to us, we will do wrong to them; but accustom yourself to do good if people do good, and not to do wrong if they do wrong.

(Tirmidhi)

[deandrecooke]

If you prefer me to use a different term to extreme sufi I will akh but calm down and dont be so harsh, I havent intentionally insulted you I thought that this was how the brothers here distinguish between real sufis and charlatans

Yes, please use another term.

[XiWm9O9S]

ok well thats a good thing bro jazak allahu khair, i never said they represent real sufis or sufi beliefs, I picked up the term extreme sufi from others here, meaning they have taken sufism and taken it to extremes, but I dont mind what term I shoudl use for them if you can suggest another inshAllah. Ahlal bid'ah got me an infraction yesterday so please suggest something inshAllah

Also bare in mind taht I have been on the opposite end of this discussion regarding salafis for a long time here, asking people to be more just etc, and people basically told me to stop complaining ratehr than actually say what your saying now. So it seems unfair to me taht brotehrs would be concerned with fairness when it comes to sufis but not salafis (not saying you do this but otehrs do). People are more than happy to link salafis to all sorts, basing their understanding of salafis on front page news, or some guy they met in the masjid, or extreme offshoots that dont represent teh salafi jama'ah. So there needs to be consistency on application of principles if you catch my drift. if this clarification is made for sufis, same should apply for salafis

[Lotyqnag]

you want proof regarding some sufi beliefs? how will you understand the proofs without fulfilling the pre requisites? sufism is suhba based not google based.
cant say the same for salafism who you brought into the discussion.

you cant learn the proofs for graveworship by suhbah bro. Suhbah is for acquiring taqwa and god manners and character reformation. I'm learning sufism at the moment and im definitely sure that graveworship isnt something taht can be learned from suhbah with any deobandi sufi.

What "prerequisites" do i need to fulfill before you copy an dpaste some hadeeth and athaar on the permissability of graveworship?