[Andrew1978]

i am asking independently of what the author wrote or pakistan's conditions.
pakistani nationalists say the Muslims were liberated and saved from India with creation of pakistan. they can show you the points i gave below as proof.

I'd assume that the founders of Pakistan were not aware to what extent secularism would be instilled in India because there are Hindu nationalist parties that take every opportunity to target Muslim groups and organizations but are mostly rejected because their rhetoric is not favourable to secularism.

It is secularism in India that has allowed Muslims to live in relative peace by the grace of Allah . But in spite of all this, there is always the spectre of Hindu nationalism in India, while the same cannot be said of Pakistan, which is, despite all its faults, a refuge for Muslims.

[Karensmith]

ml. taliban...can you respond to this thread please?

[Karensmith]

I'd assume that the founders of Pakistan were not aware to what extent secularism would be instilled in India because there are Hindu nationalist parties that take every opportunity to target Muslim groups and organizations but are mostly rejected because their rhetoric is not favourable to secularism.

It is secularism in India that has allowed Muslims to live in relative peace by the grace of Allah . But in spite of all this, there is always the spectre of Hindu nationalism in India, while the same cannot be said of Pakistan, which is, despite all its faults, a refuge for Muslims.

i agree with what you have said.
indian muslims who are anti-partition might point to the current situation in pakistan and ask how safe a refuge is it?lal masjid to a babri masjid. suicide bombing to gujarat riots.

[AcecePesFeacy]

is it safe to login such forums? Any precautionary measures?

You may use this software here to have an anonymous IP and not get tracked. Download the bundle here.

[AcecePesFeacy]

I hold no views, to understand whats going on in pakistan, reading up on the events that culminated into this backlash of internal war, is important for me. I am doing my own bit of research (you'll have to trust me when i say i am doing it with an open mind) and i include everyone and anyone with any knowledge (or who have been directly affected by the war) in fact the the thread u talk about (khurooj etc) was because i wanted to know the hanafi/deobandi POV as opposed to the Salafi (saudi ullama) in light of today's happenings ie TTP. But I only got emotional outbursts and some takfeeris. Anyway this article had some enlightening points, and since we've been discussing these issues on SF I shared it.

As far as I remember I quoted references on it from the very tafasir or akabir ulema e Deoband including Allama Shabbir Ahmad Usmani ru and Mufti Shafi sb ru. They all agree on the fact that a Muslim commits heresy if he sides with the Jews and the Christians against the Muslims. As for Khurooj I quoted Mufti Shamzayi sb's fatwa along with other ulema's fatwa who gave the ruling to take Musharraf's government down and they labelled it as 'Wajib'!

The concept of Khurooj is not only of the Salafis. Our pious predecessors did it starting from Hazrat Imam Hussain R.A then Hazrat Zaid bin Ali during Imam Abu Hanifah's time who was supported by the imam himself, there are instances of it in Imam Ibn Taymiyyah's life. As for the Deobandis, read the fatwa of Hazrat Maulana Hussain Ahmad Madni ru.

These are mere doubts because we 'love' Pakistan and call upon the unislamic notion of our countries' integrity and sovereignity above Islamic principles.

p.s if you are researching so much about this issue read the book by the journalist who was killed (as he reached the truth), his name is Saleem Shahzad. He was killed after writing this book here. I call upon everyone to read it!

[Karensmith]

brother not everyone who criticizes ttp is a nationalist

[AcecePesFeacy]

brother not everyone who criticizes ttp is a nationalist

No offence brother. Did not mean to hurt you. I meant they 'usually' are nationalists.

[Evelinessa]

Did brother maripat just call me a 'loser' among other things? I hope you all read what i wrote before the article.

To the bro above, I hope u didnt just call
me a 'nationalist'.

There are a dozen plus threads on TTP so I dont see why another is being derailed since this is entirely about the army, an Islamized army that went 'murtad' overnight apparently.

1990, your 'evidence' wasnt convincing the ahle hadith for one, remain unconvinced, because this war isnt as black and white as people believe, anyway not on this thread.

[Karensmith]

sir maripat didnt call you a loser, sister.

p.s saleem shehzad's book sounds awesome

[Evelinessa]

in sha Allah i did read an excerpt on books and authors but passed it off as a conspiracy theorist, is it true Shahzad claimed there's an AQ infiltration in the Navy..?

[Knillagrarp]

Did brother maripat just call me a 'loser' among other things? I hope you all read what i wrote before the article.

As brother mh16388 has already clarified my barbs were not directed at you sister.
How could I even think of that?

My target was the author of the piece you had posted.

I had learned a psychological curiosity during my proximity to the Marxists. They observed that when a group of people is subjugated then after some time they start thinking that they deserve this. They start thinking that they are subjugated because they deserve it.

And you can see a sample of that mentality in the article you posted. In spite of the fact that British are gone for better part of a century the author thinks that British way of thinking is the way to think. And hence he is perplexed when the reality does not fall into that paradigm. He is looking for those tell tale signs of mental world map in which British world view is the world view. He is perplexed because he does not find them. He can not yet think that Islamic point of view is a physical possibility. Ladies segregated is a cultural shock to him. Ladies inclined to supplications is a cultural shock to him. That liquor could be actually kicked is a shock to him. People in western attire could think with a non-western attitude is a cultural shock to him. He is looking for the world that has disappeared. Britain was a mighty empire and our psyche still has hesitation in accepting the fact that they stand reduced to nobodies - more or less.

And we have to admit that he is one of us.
And he wishes for the old world order - even if in this corner of the world.
I will not call him a loser on his face - it is for the purpose of putting the things in perspective that I used that device.

I apologize that unintentionally I hurt you.

[9TWSg835]

I just have some questions for Pakistan Govt, Pakistan Army and all those who support them. The answer to my question is the guiding point on who is right and who is wrong.

1) MQM is a 'terrorist' tanzeem and has killed hundreds of people in Pakistan. I think they have killed more than ttp and they have destroyed the economy of pakistan more than ttp can ever do!

Why doesn't the army take serious action against MQM and its leader like they did in sawat?

Why don't we hear the same things against MQM in the main stream media like we do against ttp or aq?

2) if u go to Lyari in karachi you will feel as if you are in a tribal area. Gangsters go around with arms openly. They kidnap people and take them to lyari and no one can do anythng about it.

Why doesn't the army take the same action against lyari terrorists the same way they took decisive action in swat?

Why is the whole media turned against ttp and waziristaan, sawat....? Why?

I think the answer is pretty simple.

I have more questions but im scared of asking them here and I know for sure that proxy software dont help you at all

[Knillagrarp]

A relevant post from here.
From Lt Gen Gul Hassan Khan
Memoirs of Lt General Gul Hassan Khan is an interesting read. Yours truly read it years ago but it left a very good taste in the mouth. Because of the unjustifiably high hatred in India for anything Pakistani you approach a book from there with similar expectations, of course in the reverse. It is strange that yours truly remembers not a single barb on India or Indian people. In fact a significant part of the book covers his postings before partition and the discussion in that part looks like as if a former army officer of India is telling his experience. And the transition to post independence is rather smooth one. Creation of Pakistan is theoretically contentious and after its creation there are several things that can be said against its upbringing but in the non-volatile circles the hatred for India is much less in Pakistan than the reverse phenomena. This was one sobering lesson of the book.

But this post is about a different point. Because of that point itself this book is worth it. Of course the book covers very important strategic as well as cultural and political scenario and every one interested in the history of the sub-continent can peruse the book with benefit. Here is the point that does not leave yours truly's mind. He somehow was a favourite of the superiors and thus would end up in the position of ADC. For a worldly wise person it would be a goody. Not for him. At more than one place he says that he wanted to do some serious soldiering. I wish we were thinking in the same way all the time - I want to do some serious Islaming. And Islaming means to behave and work and act like a Muslim. Hats off to you General Khan. (No, no, not the Vice Chancellor Lt General Zameerullah Khan. We shall do that later on, Lord Most High willing.)

[Evelinessa]

i apologize wanted to edit my post after the brother clarified but my phone died.
The author is nadeem f paracha a typical PPP liberal, we have to put up with these liberals pretty often in karachi. Although I find his old pieces informative once you get used to ignoring the trash that comes along it.

As brother mh16388 has already clarified my barbs were not directed at you sister.
How could I even think of that?

My target was the author of the piece you had posted.

I had learned a psychological curiosity during my proximity to the Marxists. They observed that when a group of people is subjugated then after some time they start thinking that they deserve this. They start thinking that they are subjugated because they deserve it.

And you can see a sample of that mentality in the article you posted. In spite of the fact that British are gone for better part of a century the author thinks that British way of thinking is the way to think. And hence he is perplexed when the reality does not fall into that paradigm. He is looking for those tell tale signs of mental world map in which British world view is the world view. He is perplexed because he does not find them. He can not yet think that Islamic point of view is a physical possibility. Ladies segregated is a cultural shock to him. Ladies inclined to supplications is a cultural shock to him. That liquor could be actually kicked is a shock to him. People in western attire could think with a non-western attitude is a cultural shock to him. He is looking for the world that has disappeared. Britain was a mighty empire and our psyche still has hesitation in accepting the fact that they stand reduced to nobodies - more or less.

And we have to admit that he is one of us.
And he wishes for the old world order - even if in this corner of the world.
I will not call him a loser on his face - it is for the purpose of putting the things in perspective that I used that device.

I apologize that unintentionally I hurt you.

[Evelinessa]

I just have some questions for Pakistan Govt, Pakistan Army and all those who support them. The answer to my question is the guiding point on who is right and who is wrong.

1) MQM is a 'terrorist' tanzeem and has killed hundreds of people in Pakistan. I think they have killed more than ttp and they have destroyed the economy of pakistan more than ttp can ever do!

Why doesn't the army take serious action against MQM and its leader like they did in sawat?

Why don't we hear the same things against MQM in the main stream media like we do against ttp or aq?

2) if u go to Lyari in karachi you will feel as if you are in a tribal area. Gangsters go around with arms openly. They kidnap people and take them to lyari and no one can do anythng about it.

Why doesn't the army take the same action against lyari terrorists the same way they took decisive action in swat?

Why is the whole media turned against ttp and waziristaan, sawat....? Why?

I think the answer is pretty simple.

I have more questions but im scared of asking them here and I know for sure that proxy software dont help you at all

ive written this in detail unfortunately did not go well with the muhajirs. Never ask a Muhajir these questions, personal experience proved they can get very abusive and wallow into self pity mode. Some delusional muhajir brothers even believe MQM is some sorta jihadi group protecting muhajir muslims from genocide. Lets not forget they have some ullama on their side too.

And comparing MQM with TTP is far fetched because MQM is not using an
islamic mandate to wage war against pakistanis, TTP is in an active state of war against us. MQM is just as disliked among non Muhajirs as TTP is, the difference is MQM doesnt come out and proudly claim responsibility after attacks like TTP does, and then call it 'jihad'

p.s. i am a supporter of neither the army nor the TTP. as usual its the poor people of pak who are dying both ways. its the poor people and the youth who are suffering the most, not the kuffaar.

[9TWSg835]

ive written this in detail unfortunately did not go well with the muhajirs. Never ask a Muhajir these questions, personal experience proved they can get very abusive and wallow into self pity mode. Some delusional muhajir brothers even believe MQM is some sorta jihadi group protecting muhajir muslims from genocide. Lets not forget they have some ullama on their side too.

And comparing MQM with TTP is far fetched because MQM is not using an
islamic mandate to wage war against pakistanis, TTP is in an active state of war against us.

p.s. i am a supporter of neither the army nor the TTP. as usual its the poor people of pak who are dying both ways. its the poor people and the youth who are suffering the most, not the kuffaar.

seems like you didnt understand the question thts why the answer is xyz.

Btw im a muhajir.

Try to understand my question again and answer my question. Dont answer your own question.

[Evelinessa]

http://www.thefridaytimes.com/beta/t...0110617&page=2

I havent strted readin saleem shehzads book yet but found this, ^ worth reading.

[Evelinessa]

seems like you didnt understand the question thts why the answer is xyz.

Btw im a muhajir.

Try to understand my question again and answer my question. Dont answer your own question.

I am also a Muhajir and i also mentioned i am a supporter of neither, i only gave my 2 cents but realize i should have kept shut since ur questions were for those who support the govt/army.

Anyway wasnt there an action against the lyari goons in the 90's and muhajirs call it a 'black day' they were commemorating it a few days/week or two back. Looks like the army prefers to tolerate militant groups as future 'assets'

[Knillagrarp]

Whenever there is a discussion about TTP the things become tense.
It has been about two years since my first encounter with such threads.
To be honest it has always been difficult to get a complete picture of the situation.
Only one point is clear - the topic is rather volatile one.
This perhaps also betrays one more aspect - that may be the things are not that clear on the ground itself.
And that is perfectly possible.
Personally I feel that the local patch of Ummah is passing through a serious phase of test.
May they come well out of it.

[nAKMzyBN]

Personally what i feel is the western media and its likes have thrown mujahideens enough into bad light. Muslims if do not know properly should atleast maintain some silence lest they cause more harm by their ignorant posts and speech and that can be more detrimental to the one who propagates in that line and to the ummah in general. So such topic should not be encouraged. This is my personal opinion. Already this ummah has shown enough of its cowardice so let us atleast stop speaking against those who claim to fight for islam and let us pray for guidance of all the muslims.
Allahu alam