[grosqueneen]

Those who think that capitalism is the way forward while Islam pulls people behind, here is an article from NYT about how capitalism wreck havoc on poor and sick of a society. Its a flawed system for humans without any concerns for human values and conditions.

My thinking is that capitalism is a system setup to enslave human being, make them buy artifically inflated assets, and then get both husband and wife to work towards paying for these assets. I think the way the world is evolving in less than a decade it will be really hard to find a middle class families where both husband and wife are not working.



http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/03/us...nted=2&_r=1&hp

Mr. Bright, of the Southern Center for Human Rights, complained that with the private companies seeking a profit, courts in need of income and the most vulnerable caught up in the system, “we end up balancing the budget on the backs of the poorest people in society.”

[sigrekatonov]

You are right it is a great slave system masking itself as freedom...all one has to do is stop listening to the propaganda spewed out by their mass media and it will be obvious to all.

There are attempts to make capitalism Islamic...and in theory it sounds good...but in practice it is reforming Islam to fit into the slave system. If Islam is against riba how come all the western universities offer courses on Islamic Finance? How come all these banks are keen to grow their Islamic finance sections? Is it even possible that people who love riba and have built institutions that pour out riba (banks) creating a highly divided society will love a religion that prohibits riba? No, so why do they like Islamic finance? Because it is a means of charging riba and changing the deen of Islam. Muslims must be careful we are supposed to be the middle nation, those whom Allah has sent to guide humanity...therefore we must establish Islamic muamalat. Trade is about mutual consent, not where one party forces another to choose trade or jail. People are waking up, this is a golden opportunity for Muslims to establish halal alternatives.

Muamalat Vs Islamisation of Banking and Capitalism by Prof Umar Ibrahim Vadillo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&fe...reen&v=-fJbek-
1 hour 20 minutes long.

[freeringsf]

Is this like the 'Rich are getting richer and poor poorer'?

[grosqueneen]

I suggest that you also read the comments to understand what the US public thinks and how they are affected.

A great oneliner from the comment section - "Socialism for the wealthy, cut-throat capitalism for everyone else."

[grosqueneen]

Don't for second think that these are isolated cases. This has happened to me last year.

I was visiting my college (as an alumni) and was driving a rental car, and, all the time I was there driving, I didn't notice anything wrong nor did I get pulled over by cops. Then a few months later I see a charge on my credit card from the rental car company, so I called them and inquired about the charge. I was told that there is traffic voilation against the car that I rented, and it was a fee that is charged by rental car company whenever there is an infraction against any of their cars. They gave me the number of "University security/Police" (yes, every university in US has an army of such police), so I called them to find out what caused the infraction. I was told that the "system" says that I was driving dangerously, and to contest the ticket I have to go back to the town and get a court date etc, and no there is no proof - just how one officer observed me drive", and, yes there is an outstanding fine against me as well.

I was surprised how can anyone be ticketed without any proof (no picture, radar readouts, nothing). I came to find out that this is normal and the university police does this all the time. This university is one of the to 25 universities of US.

The university is thousands of miles away from where I live now so there was no point on contesting the ticket. Finally, I had to pay total of $119 as fine.

[GalasaKoll]

First of all, this is not "capitalism". Capitalism is a system where there is minimal state-intervention or restrictions (low/no taxes) in the market, i.e, free-market. What the US is and is many other countries: it is corporatism, corporatocracy, cronyism, and/or kleptocracy (see definitions on wikipedia).

If you want to learn about capitalism, then read up what "Libertarians" or fiscal-conservatives espouse, not what corporatists, liberals or neocons espouse. Here is a video to better illustrate the difference- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRQCbcZtu_c (warning: background music) and another video- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiMaipssKt4

The moment the state prevents free-market trade, it ceases to be capitalism. The moment the state bails-out a corporation, it ceases to be capitalism. The moment the State takes money (via taxes) and "subsidizes" it to a private corporation, it ceases to be capitalism. What you have been the victim of is a cleptocracy, corporatocracy, and the increasing police-state; not "capitalism".

Having studied capitalism and marxism, i can assure you most Muslims have little clue what they are. Rather, they depend on the Western definitions of "capitalism" and "communism". And this is part of the reason Muslims are behind, because whether they admit it or not, they are subliminally manipulated by the West.

Take for example the Iraq war, the shia's killed thousands. I have followed that war since the beginning, distributed j!hadi media, etc. We all knew the bigger enemy was the Rawafid, not the US. The common saying of the Iraqis was "The US will leave but Iran will stay". But MOST muslims paid no heed to the sectarian violence or shia death-squads killing sunnis in iraq. They blamed the US, and said that they were the ones killing people to get Muslims to blame each other.

Fast-forward to today. Syria is in civil-war, and the Sunnis are fighting the Alawis backed by their Shia allies. Now all of a sudden, everyone's turned against Iran and the Shia. Why this now?? This is because unlike in Iraq, where the US was supporting the Shia (to overthrow the sunnis). Today the US is supporting the Sunnis. And the rest of the Muslims, who always claim they know about US' conspiracies, are tapdancing to the US agenda once again. The fact that you ignored the shia's crimes before (which was 10X worse than syria today) is proof!

You are right it is a great slave system masking itself as freedom...all one has to do is stop listening to the propaganda spewed out by their mass media and it will be obvious to all.

There are attempts to make capitalism Islamic...and in theory it sounds good...but in practice it is reforming Islam to fit into the slave system. If Islam is against riba how come all the western universities offer courses on Islamic Finance? How come all these banks are keen to grow their Islamic finance sections? Is it even possible that people who love riba and have built institutions that pour out riba (banks) creating a highly divided society will love a religion that prohibits riba? No, so why do they like Islamic finance? Because it is a means of charging riba and changing the deen of Islam. Muslims must be careful we are supposed to be the middle nation, those whom Allah has sent to guide humanity...therefore we must establish Islamic muamalat. Trade is about mutual consent, not where one party forces another to choose trade or jail. People are waking up, this is a golden opportunity for Muslims to establish halal alternatives.

Muamalat Vs Islamisation of Banking and Capitalism by Prof Umar Ibrahim Vadillo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&fe...reen&v=-fJbek-
1 hour 20 minutes long.

"Interest" to capitalism, is like "Darwins Theory" to science. Whether you believe/practice it or not, it has nothing to do with capitalism. One can study biology or history and believe in "Evolution" (as the Kuffar do), and one can study the same subjects and not believe in "Evolution" (as Muslims do); it does not mean we're practicing a separate system/science.

If you read what capitalism means, then you'll see interest plays no integral function in it at all. Capitalism is all about free trade (exchange). Compared to the corporatist system of the West, the Islamic system is much closer to actual "capitalism". The only system more 'capitalist' then Islam would be a "Libertarian" system (and yes, ive studied that as well).

For example: in Islam, "Maks" or tarrifs are Haram. Which means Islam ensures free-trade without tarrifs (import-tax) or "protectionism". As it says in the Hadith:
- Narrated Uqbah ibn Amir: "I heard the Apostle of Allah (saw) as saying: One who wrongfully takes an extra tax (sahib maks) will not enter Paradise". (Sunan Abu Dawood)
- It was narrated from Abd-Allaah ibn Buraydah, from his father, in the hadeeth about the stoning of the Ghaamidi woman who gave birth as the result of zina, that the Prophet (saw) said: “By the One in Whose hand is my soul, she has repented in such a way that if the one who collects the maks were to repent like that, he would be forgiven.” (Sahih Muslim)


Many Muslims today have invented the concept of "Islamic Welfare State", a state that provides all the services imagineable to Muslims. But in Islam, ZAKAT of personal wealth is just 2.5%. If Allah or Rasul (sa) wanted, then they could have easily made it 20%. Because if you look at any "welfare state", Taxes range from 25% to 60% in any welfare-state: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:In...By_Country.svg

Welfare state is also what gave birth to corporatism. A system where money is taken from the poor (public), and hander over to the rich (coporations) as subsidies/bailouts. This is totally unislamic, and it leads to corporotocracy and police-state. Corporatocracy is basically legalized-corruption. This is why LOBBIES dictates american/western economic and foreign policy. Its not called "bribles", it called "lobbying". Why do you think US sucks up to ISRAEL? because rich Jews run certain corps, and they use that power/money to buy-out politicians.

These wars (iraq), were not done for oil but rather for oil-corporations. The oil corps pay politicians, and those politicians push their agenda in congress/parliament. And once their successful, the corporations are awared with lucrative contracts, subsidies, etc. D!ck Cheney was a former CEO of Halliburton, and that same company made billions in Iraq. So the invasion was not for oil, but for the oil corps, security contractor co's, and military-industry.

In Islam, we are against superstition; but that doesnt mean we're athiest. Similarly, in Islam we believe in WELFARE (zakat,sadaqa,orphanages), but not 'welfare-state'. Because ZAKAT was not 25% but rather 2.5%. It is actually the shia who follow "Khums" at 20%. But to them their "khums" is not Farz (unless booty of war). Which means that under shia'ism, SOME people pay 20% of their wealth, whereas some pay NONE. This is how some people become free-loaders or leeches of the system (like in the USA). Islam also encourages wrestling, swimming, sports; does that mean the State should force that on people as well?? Other than zakat, everything else is upon the person's own good-will and taqwa.


In Sunnah, we encourage SADAQA, which is voluntary-charity. You can give as much as YOU want, not because of force by the State. Also in Islam, zakat is payed at the end of the year after all expenses have been done. And not on the INCOME (per month during pay-day, before expenses). This is how Islam encourages free-market, because our system ensures people have money to INVEST in business or SPEND on products.

Investing and spending both, create JOBS for other people. They inturn will live a better life and will buy products on their own (creating further econ growth, & jobs), and support their familiy, and so forth. After that, the money that will remain AFTER the spending/investing, or the profit that is gained FROM these new ventures. Those are what is calculated for Zakat 2.5%. If zakat/income-tax was taken monthly, then this would reduce our pay-check and would deter spending/investment.

Islam is very much in line with capitalism, or "fiscal conservatism". Most muslims however, are following Western form of phony "capitalism" which is merely corporatism, or welfare-state (can be mutually exclusive/inclusive). People forget that our Rasul (sa), his uncle, and his wife Khadija (ra), and numerous Sahaba were businessmen or traders (people who would be called "capitalists" today). Merchantry is what helped Islam spread around the world (especially South East Asia).


And it is our economic might that expanded our empire; millions converted to Islam because they saw our economic success, and our lifestyle with much less hardship (Hindus were engaged in caste-system, Europeans in feudalism, which kept them poor; the cleptocracy of their day). Today Muslim countries have terrible economic systems: anti-freemarket, and so on. And even the rich countries like Saudi is kleptorcray; UAE is corporatocray and kleptocracy . That is why the West can easily invade countries, because our destruction does not effect them one bit. When muslims will become a consumer-based economic system, thats when the West will stop killing us. Because nobody wants to kill their own customers, suppliers, or trading partners.

Countries like Iraq, Libya, Gulf, trade in OIL, and that is why they can be easily replaced with another regime. Because the OIL remains flowing (despite the war/invasion, which will be just a temporary hiccup), and the newer replacement stooge-regime will engage in corporatism (using tax-money to subsidize handing over lucrative drilling-contracts, weapons contracts, etc). The reason the West refrains from attacking China is because they see them as a MARKET (1.3 billion strong), where they will sell products to in the future. But just like China, muslims also have Huge population, but they dont see us a Market, they see you as Cattle.

Muslims are part of a global caste-system; where we are on the bottom, slaving away for those in the middle (leaders of Gulf-Arab & oil-producing regimes), and on top is the Noble/Brahim (represented by the West). As long as you are part of this feudalism, we can never receive our dignity. Because you have no worth other than to slave; just like the Blacks in America, the Serfs in Europe and Japan, the "Third Estate" France. Guess what destroyed that, it was the "bourgeoisie" (literally the Middle-class). Today, neither Japan, Europe, or America will want to revert back to feudalism, because these Serfs/Blacks are vital parts of the consumer-economy.

[grosqueneen]

Br Warrior1,

So inshort you are saying that whats happening in US is not due to the results of capitalism? I agree, there is no country in the world that has true capitalism, its a utopia.
It can only be achieved without border (no need for lobbying, legislation, complete currencies convertibility, etc), which are all impossible tasks, and I don't neccessary agree with a capitalist system without any compassion. Since you claim to have learned about capitalism, you must also have studied about coporate governance - developing programs to benefit the society and people at large. Or CK Prahalad's theory of bottom of pyramid. Its all about getting people in the chains of debt.

Do you know why BP's logo is GREEN, when they are probably one of the worst polluters of the world? Same with any large multinational. Its all about $$$ with no regards to from where the money is coming, as long as its coming is all that matters. I think the easiest preys are the poors, they have limited ability to defend themselves, just like what we see happening the story. You would have noted that the company which is collecting debts is proudly proclaiming that its working for the people as well - helping local government get the $$$ to operate schools, roads etc.

Capitalism is a mirage - a lie, which the West shows to gullible developing countries to have them following like childrens in the pide-pipper story.

[grosqueneen]

First "Interest" to capitalism, is like "Darwins Theory" to science. Whether you believe/practice it or not, it has nothing to do with capitalism. One can study biology or history and believe in "Evolution" (as the Kuffar do), and one can study the same subjects and not believe in "Evolution" (as Muslims do); it does not mean we're practicing a separate system/science.

Actually interest is one of the greatest enabler - a driver, of capitalism that exists today. Without interest there can be no capitalism in its current form.

[GalasaKoll]

Br Warrior1,

So inshort you are saying that whats happening in US is not due to the results of capitalism? I agree, there is no country in the world that has true capitalism, its a utopia.
It can only be achieved without border (no need for lobbying, legislation, complete currencies convertibility, etc), which is all impossible tasks and I don't neccessary agree with a capitalist system without any compassion. Since you claim to have learned about capitalism, you must also have studied about coporate governance - developing programs to benefit the society and people at large.

Do you know why BP's logo is GREEN, when they are probably one of the worst polluters of the world? Same with any large multinational you see, its all about $$$ with no regards of where the money is coming from. You would have also studied about the bottom of pyramid, you sure know what that is correct?

Capitalism is a mirage - a lie, which the West shows to gullible developing countries to have them following like childrens in pide-pipper story.

I'm still studying a lot of things (economics, politics, etc). But i meant i've studied things which are not taught in instututions: libertarianism, marxism, corporatism, and so on. Since, these are not taughte in institutions, i dont know every nook-n-cranny, but i know the important pointers. Capitalism isnt a mirage, Democracy is. If you read what i wrote, my point was to show that Islam is much more in line with capitalism (free trade), then the West. If you look up Max Keiser, Ron Paul, or Alex Jones, then you will find that they basically are saying the same thing (that the West isnt capitalist).

Brother, what does BP's logo have to do with "capitalism"? The green-logo has more to do with marketing that capitalism. I think, like most people in general, you are stuck with labelling as opposed to meaning of said label. This is why the US can pass its system as "capitalism", and China still calls itself "Communist". When in reality they are both following the same economic system, under respective false labels.

This is why democracy is a mirage. Because the democracy assumes that the "majority" is always right. But in reality, the majority is always vulnerable to manipulation. That is why countries like USA can use the false labels of freedom and capitalism, to carry out their agenda, because majority of their own citizens support the govt's actions. Majority of foreign population want to emulate the same rule of "democracy".

Actually interest is one of the greatest enabler - a driver, of capitalism that exists today. Without interest there can be no capitalism in its current form.

Capitalism in its "current form", isnt really capitalism. Once again, as i said: look up on Max Keiser and Ron Paul.

This is why i dont debate with three groups of people on economics and governance: neocons, liberals, and muslims.
Because most people are too attached to false paradigms, that you dont want to open your mind, and see the "illusion" (as u righly said)

The kaffir doesnt want to know what is Sharia, and the neocon/muslim/liberal doesnt want to know what is REAL capitalism.
Like muslims say "if you want to learn Islam, read the scripture, not what OTHER muslims do". I ask muslims to do the same, with regards to economics.

[grosqueneen]

If you look up Max Keiser, Ron Paul, or Alex Jones, then you will find that they basically are saying the same thing (that the West isnt capitalist).

Capitalism in its "current form", isnt really capitalism. Once again, as i said: look up on Max Keiser and Ron Paul.

This is why i dont debate with three groups of people on economics and governance: neocons, liberals, and muslims.
Because most people are too attached to false paradigms, that you dont want to open your mind, and see the "illusion" (as u righly said)

The kaffir doesnt want to know what is Sharia, and the neocon/muslim/liberal doesnt want to know what is REAL capitalism.
Like muslims say "if you want to learn Islam, read the scripture, not what OTHER muslims do". I ask muslims to do the same, with regards to economics.

If you are learning econ from Alex Jones and Ron Paul then good luck. You got the source wrong.

BTW, I think you are confused, literally, on the one side you say that you are still learning about capitalism, but on the other hand you say that Muslims do not know it. To understand that Muslim do not know it, you need to know it first, right?

Go to http://www.islamic-finance.com/indexnew.htm and try to get a different prespective from the resources and editorials posted on that site. I know its about financing but there are a lot of econ stuff there as well.

[GalasaKoll]

If you are learning econ from Alex Jones and Ron Paul then good luck. You got the source wrong.

BTW, I think you are confused, literally, on the one side you say that you are still learning about capitalism, but on the other hand you say that Muslims do not know it. To understand that Muslim do not know it, you need to know it first, right?

Go to http://www.islamic-finance.com/indexnew.htm and try to get a different prespective from the resources and editorials posted on that site. I know its about financing but there are a lot of econ stuff there as well.

That is not what i said. i said im studying ECONOMICS and POLITICS from reputable official instututions (name withheld).
i merely said that i learnt Libertarianism and corporatism from RON PAUL, the most famous libertarian in the world.
and i learnt Marxism in the same way, from ONLINE; not from school, college, university. Will they teach Marxism??

If you cant understand what im saying now, then theres no point taking this discussion any further. just disregard my posts.
this is why im against democracy, because most people dont understand other POV. and im surely a minority in this topic.
and knowing the democratic nature of most people, i dont want to be the victom of another "majority vote" against minority.

[GalasaKoll]

Capitalism is a mirage - a lie, which the West shows to gullible developing countries to have them following like childrens in the pide-pipper story.

OK, i will assume that 'capitalism' is all wrong. Although it kind of reminds me of the debate over gay-marriage in the West, and whats the difference over "marriage" and "civil union". But assuming that capitalism is all wrong, is there anything in MY post that you also disagree with. The idea of consumer-economy, free-trade (with no tarrifs), and no 'welfare-state' (keeping taxes low)? i also believe in "gun-rights" (our Rasul encouraged archery and carried a blade).

If the only dispute is me saying "riba" is not an integral part of capitalism, and you saying it is. Then will you also say that "darwins theory" is also an integral part of History/Biology (hence, biology/history is haram)?? The principles of capitalism or whatever you want to call it, dont state Interest as some sort of necessity. From online, you can see the definition as: "Capitalism is an economic system that is based on private ownership of the means of production and the creation of goods or services for profit".

From the above line, which aspect will you call Haram? Because i couldnt find any. Private ownership is something protected under Islam, and so is the Creation of goods/services for Profit. If one non-integral PART is haram (be it "evolution" or "riba"), that doesnt mean the whole is Haram. An islamic economic system can still be considered "capitalist" simply because it complies with both Private-ownership and For-Profit agenda. Banning interest doesnt change that. Just as we can also respect biology/history without including "darwinism".

[sigrekatonov]

Warrior 1

I agree with most of what you say but riba, interest, fractional reserve banking and central banking are part of Capitalism, the other capitalism described by Austrian Economists would still allow riba but not central banks etc. The current Capitalism is powered by riba and without it, it would be a very different system.