[VarenHokalos]

Yes credit is more important than truth, no surprises their either. Keep going son.!!

What?

You're entirely incoherent. Please reword this.

[siklop]

[quote]All it takes is clicking the link I provide and reading it. I can't even rightly take credit for it, it was pointed out by mureeds of GF Haddad on mereislam.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...ws/faith/view/

[VarenHokalos]

Who promotes your anti- sufi ideology ? Please tell ?

I'm anti-shirk. Not anti-Sufi. Stop jumping around like an excited weasel and have a consistent line of questioning.

[siklop]

What?

You're entirely incoherent. Please reword this.

Why are you mentioning CREDIT ? Why didnt you CREDIT the original author at the beginning ? Why in post 23 ?? Whats Credit got to do with it ? Motivation perhaps ?

Credit for an precieved exposure of one mans words, which may be mistranslated, misinterpreted ? You want a GOLD MEDAL !!! ha ha

go to the Olympics for Credit...ha ha !!

[siklop]

I'm anti-shirk. Not anti-Sufi. Stop jumping around like an excited weasel and have a consistent line of questioning.

Why you so worried about Shirk from the layman ? Hows the heart reading skills going ?.

How do you work out who is committing shirk ? Bt the way, please tell. Its such a HUGE CONCERN FOR YOU ??

Who forumlated this HUGE CONCERN for mindreading and heartreading others ??? Please tell

Anti-shirk squad is set loose. Heart Readers in Operation in this Forum !!

If only you worried about yourself, instead of random people, that you dont even know, you would get a lot further.

Guess what, the ideology you promote doesnt encourage self reflection, what a surprise again !!

[VarenHokalos]

Why are you mentioning CREDIT ? Why didnt you CREDIT the original author at the beginning ? Why in post 23 ?? Whats Credit got to do with it ? Motivation perhaps ?

Your signature is very true.

Yes, it was an error of mine to not point that out at the beginning. It was pointed out now and everything is neatly substantiated. Are you quite done?

Why you so worried about Shirk from the layman ? Hows the heart reading skills going ?.

How do work out who is committing shirk ? Bt the way, please tell. Its such a HUGE CONCERN FOR YOU ??

Who forumlated this HUGE CONCERN for mindreading and heartreading others ??? Please tell You're not against shirk? A lot of laymen think secularism is ok now. Have you seen that? Secularism is shirk. You should be worried about that. A lot of laymen go to graves and say 'You fulfill my work' to the occupants. Shaykh Rashid Ahmed Gangohi said: this is shirk. Shah Ismail Dehlavi said: this is shirk. Shah Waliullah Dehlavi said: this is shirk. Sun'Allah al-Hanafi said: this is shirk. Do you think the 'aami is immune to shirk?

Who's talking about mindreading who?

You're not concerned about shirk? Do you think the Ummah is immune from shirk?

...I'm probably going to put you on my ignore list if you don't start making sense.

Credit for an precieved exposure of one mans words, which may be mistranslated, misinterpreted ? You want a GOLD MEDAL !!! ha ha ...what perceived exposure? It's a direct quote from the transcript of an interview he gave. Go watch the program yourself.

[siklop]

Yes, it was an error of mine to not point that out at the beginning. It was pointed out now and everything is neatly substantiated. Are you quite done?



You're not against shirk? A lot of laymen think secularism is ok now. Have you seen that? Secularism is shirk. You should be worried about that. A lot of laymen go to graves and say 'You fulfill my work' to the occupants. Shaykh Rashid Ahmed Gangohi said: this is shirk. Shah Ismail Dehlavi said: this is shirk. Shah Waliullah Dehlavi said: this is shirk. Sun'Allah al-Hanafi said: this is shirk. Do you think the 'aami is immune to shirk?

Who's talking about mindreading who?

You're not concerned about shirk? Do you think the Ummah is immune from shirk?

...I'm probably going to put you on my ignore list if you don't start making sense.



...what perceived exposure? It's a direct quote from the transcript of an interview he gave. Go watch the program yourself.

So the biggest problems facing the muslims are in bold according to you ! ??

Its not the slaughter of millions of innocents by powers that want resources and oil and control of muslim lands, by the VERY SAME people who say the worst problem in the muslim world is muslims "shirk" ??

You have the perspective of a GNAT !!!

Please ignore me. Put me on your ignore list. I would really appreciate that. Thankyou

You're not concerned about shirk? Do you think the Ummah is immune from shirk? NO I AM NOT CONCERNED ABOUT READING HEARTS OF THOSE WHO SAY THEY ARE MUSLIM

Thats your job, 100m Heart Reading Shirk Race - I hope you run for Gold !!!

[gennnniiikk]

quit it boys

[siklop]

Y A lot of laymen go to graves and say 'You fulfill my work' to the occupants.

Who's talking about mindreading who?

Congratulation on your noble work to stop the laymen from saying at graves "You fulfill my work"

Such a HUGE PRESSING ISSUE. Millions of muslims going to graves EVERYDAY, sometimes 5 times a day, and offering the "you fulfill my work" praise to the dead. Urgent pressing grave problem. ?!?


PROVE ME WRONG - QUOTE ONE SURVEY DONE IN THE HISTORY OF MUSLIMS TO SUBSTANTIATE YOUR CLAIM, THAT A "LOT OF LAYMEN GO" AND COMMIT SHIRK !!

JUST ONE SINGLE SURVEY< QUETIONNAIRE< CENSUS< ANYTHING OFFICIAL _ ITS SUCH A HUGE CONCERN< IM CERTAIN YOU ARE WITHOLDING VITAL EVIDENCE

[haittiweerved]

THE FULL INTERVIEW WITH SHAYKH KHALED ABOU EL FADL

[People should read this full interview in detail and then coming to understand the context in which Shaykh El Fadl makes the statements that he does. He also makes those statements in the context of philosophical discussion not in terms of discussing creed. It is a valid and viable philosophical opinion to take about issues of morality in the context of the Islamic tradition. He was not talking about adopting the HISTORICAL EXPRESSION of Mutazilite thinking wholesale but merely talking about specific issues such as moral philosophy.

Also if people have read the Shaykh's work (he has written a lot of material) then you will find he places God right at the centre of his intellectual project - God is the starting point of all intellectual enquiry because Beauty (which is the central pursuit of El Fadl's moral and ethical project) comes from God. Anyone familiar with El Fadl's moral and juristic project knows that he is concerned with discovering God's Will - yes the intellect is utilised but only in the service of discovering the Will of God, Beauty and defining our relationship with God.

No its not valid or viable. ITs heretical as he pointed out at least the fact that he doesnot believe Allah's pre-determination is absolute. Allah made Kharijites kill Ali r.a and Allah decreed 9/11. There is good in everything which happens to the Ummah. Ahlus Sunnah Muslims are perfectly comfortable in saying Allah creates evil. Allah gives cancer, AIDS, heartattacks, poverty and makes wars and bombs fall on our heads. Everything is predetermined is a basic Ahlus Sunnah belief. WE are not to question Allah's awareness or execution of destiny retrospectively. If he is saying that 9/11 happened out of the will of Allah that is completely heretical. WE have a clear well defined paradox in our belief which we as Ahlus Sunnah accept and thus despite believing that Allah does everything the believer does not cease to engage his nafs to change everything according to Islam's ethical and moral value system.

No one denies that Khaled Abou El Fadl is a good man, that he has worked long hours and days in the service of Islam more than many other scholars. That many Islamo-phobes hate him to more bigger extents than other Muslim activist. However we have to say wrong where someone is wrong. And his knowledge of destiny is skewed. May Allah enlighten him and make him do more service than what he has already done. He is a very articulate writer, a very moderate man and he is rational and has documented puritanical Islam well in the only book I have read so far by him. His sincerity can be deciphered from the interview. However he holds a heretical belief and its significance shouldnot be downplayed. Absolute pre-determination is supposed to be a believers great comfort.

[gennnniiikk]

No its not valid or viable. ITs heretical as he pointed out at least the fact that he doesnot believe Allah's pre-determination is absolute. Allah made Kharijites kill Ali r.a and Allah decreed 9/11. There is good in everything which happens to the Ummah. Ahlus Sunnah Muslims are perfectly comfortable in saying Allah creates evil. Allah gives cancer, AIDS, heartattacks, poverty and makes wars and bombs fall on our heads. Everything is predetermined is a basic Ahlus Sunnah belief. WE are not to question Allah's awareness or execution of destiny retrospectively. If he is saying that 9/11 happened out of the will of Allah that is completely heretical. WE have a clear well defined paradox in our belief which we as Ahlus Sunnah accept and thus despite believing that Allah does everything the believer does not cease to engage his nafs to change everything according to Islam's ethical and moral value system.

No one denies that Khaled Abou El Fadl is a good man, that he has worked long hours and days in the service of Islam more than many other scholars. That many Islamo-phobes hate him to more bigger extents than other Muslim activist. However we have to say wrong where someone is wrong. And his knowledge of destiny is skewed. May Allah enlighten him and make him do more service than what he has already done. He is a very articulate writer, a very moderate man and he is rational and has documented puritanical Islam well in the only book I have read so far by him. His sincerity can be deciphered from the interview. However he holds a heretical belief and its significance shouldnot be downplayed. Absolute pre-determination is supposed to be a believers great comfort.

brother knowledge does not equate guidance from Allah (SWT).
and correct judgement is based on the presence of both. so those whose opinions are misguided on some issues (and let me add severely misguided) , their judgement is impaired. unless they are simply repeating something. but whenever their judgement is applied it is not to be taken seriously.
and you are sadly misinformed about the service of Islam the actual scholars do and have been doing since the birth of Islam.

[siklop]

No its not valid or viable. ITs heretical as he pointed out at least the fact that he doesnot believe Allah's pre-determination is absolute. Allah made Kharijites kill Ali r.a and Allah decreed 9/11. There is good in everything which happens to the Ummah. Ahlus Sunnah Muslims are perfectly comfortable in saying Allah creates evil. Allah gives cancer, AIDS, heartattacks, poverty and makes wars and bombs fall on our heads. Everything is predetermined is a basic Ahlus Sunnah belief. WE are not to question Allah's awareness or execution of destiny retrospectively. If he is saying that 9/11 happened out of the will of Allah that is completely heretical. WE have a clear well defined paradox in our belief which we as Ahlus Sunnah accept and thus despite believing that Allah does everything the believer does not cease to engage his nafs to change everything according to Islam's ethical and moral value system.

Everything is pre-determined by the Will of Allah indeed (please bear this premise in mind if you continue to read) but if Cancer is caused by man made pollutants, by Allahs free will to mankind, can you say Allah gives cancer ? Isnt that heretical, IF the premise is true?

If AIDS was introduced through artificially in a man made lab, can you say Allah gives Aids ?

If heart attacks are due to stress at home, work, bad diets, clogged arteries, can you say Allah gives heart attacks.?

If poverty is caused by a war imposed on a people, can we say Allah gives poverty ?

I think your definitions of "evil" and "destiny" are skewed.

When you say Allahs pre-determination is absolute, are you saying therefore free will is not a human attribute, absolute implies no free will ?

Allahs pre-determination in human affairs is relative, while the pre-determination in the Universe is still absolute?

Ahlus Sunnah Muslims are perfectly comfortable in saying Allah creates evil. I think evil is just lack of goodness. Allah creates all the good, and evil is the result of mankinds gift of free will, and its misuse of that gift in lack of acting on the goodness.

Its like darkness, there is no such thing, its just an absence of light. Allah didnt create darkness, just places where light doesnt pass. Similarly Allah didnt create evil, just this is a result of misusing free will.

There would be no evil if there were no disobedient mankind or jinns.

[Patamuta]

I think evil is just lack of goodness. Allah creates all the good, and evil is the result of mankinds gift of free will, and its misuse of that gift in lack of acting on the goodness.

Its like darkness, there is no such thing, its just an absence of light. Allah didnt create darkness, just places where light doesnt pass. Similarly Allah didnt create evil, just this is a result of misusing free will.

There would be no evil if there were no disobedient mankind or jinns.

This is the plague of the mu'tazilah and the Shi'a as well. The Qur'an clearly states that Allah created everything. Allah created light, created darkness, created good, and created evil. The Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah are firm upon this belief, regardless of the rationalizations of the mu'tazilan and the Shi'a.

[siklop]

This is the plague of the mu'tazilah and the Shi'a as well. The Qur'an clearly states that Allah created everything. Allah created light, created darkness, created good, and created evil. The Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah are firm upon this belief, regardless of the rationalizations of the mu'tazilan and the Shi'a.

Thanks for reminding me of the bubonic proportions of having a discussion on free will and evil !

I said BEAR IN MIND THE PREMISE, i even said PLEASE. Everything happens by Allahs will, so EVERYTHING is Allahs creation why did you edit that out in your quote ??

Look we both know there would be no evil if there was no mankind or jinn, even the non muslims call them "natural disasters", and thats all that would remain.

Answer this question.

Where is the evil if there is no disbelieving Mankind or Jinn ? (Given Allah creates EVERYTHING, and NOTHING happens without his will)

[Patamuta]

Thanks for reminding me of the bubonic proportions of having a discussion on free will and evil !

I said READ THE PREMISE. Everything happens by Allahs will, so EVERYTHING is Allahs creation why did you edit that out in your quote ??

Did you or did you not say "Allah didnt create darkness" or "Allah didnt create evil"? The rest of your post was peripheral and full of baseless rationalization, which has no place in Islam when there are clear cut proofs from the Qur'an and Sunnah.

The Qur'an is clear that all good and evil comes from Allah . If you think that believing that cancer inevitably comes from Allah is heretical, then something worse than cancer - misguidance - also comes from Allah. This is in the Qur'an. Are you going to say that the Qur'an is heretical now?

All good, evil, light, darkness, guidance, misguidance, etc. ultimately come from Allah .

You should save yourself from the curse of the mu'tazilah and find a good scholar for guidance instead of using your faulty understanding to come up with your own conclusions. Otherwise, get more knowledge before you try to espouse your ideology which mirrors the Mu'tazilah, who have been soundly refuted throughout history ever since their inception.

[siklop]

All good, evil, light, darkness, guidance, misguidance, etc. ultimately come from Allah .

.

WE KNOW

Thats not the issue , the issue is EVIL and DESTINY and a certain definition of "Allah Creates Evil" which is TRUE ULTIMATELY, but its NOT TRUE to say All evil is from Allah or Allah gives Aids, cancer, poverty, war and bombs, because THESE are MAN MADE and yes SOME MAY BE TESTS and YES EVERYTHING IS BY ALLAHS WILL, BUT TO SAY ITS ALL GIVEN BY ALLAH< IS NOT TRUE.

Darkness is absence of light, it doesnt exist without its opposite.

Evil doesnt exist without its good opposite missing either.

We both know vast majority of what is classed evil has roots of some greedy or wicked man, lets not kid ourselves here. Thats the point. Its not Allah creating all this "evil", it MANKIND !!!

We both know there would be no human definition of evil applicable in the universe without disbeliving mankind and djinn

So thats the point of the post, if it isnt drummed in already. You dont need to divert into another Sectarian Hoo Haa, for your cheap thrills.

[Patamuta]

WE KNOW

Thats not the issue , the issue is EVIL and DESTINY and a certain definition of "Allah Creates Evil" which is TRUE ULTIMATELY, but its NOT TRUE to say All evil is from Allah gives Aids, cancer, poverty, war and bombs, because THESE are MAN MADE and yes SOME MAY BE TESTS and YES EVERYTHING IS BY ALLAHS WILL, BUT TO SAY ITS ALL GIVEN BY ALLAH< IS NOT TRUE.

Darkness is absence of light, it doesnt exist without its opposite.

Evil doesnt exist without its good opposite missing either.

All evil and misguidance is from Allah and this is a fundamental belief of Islam. Allah may use the means of cancer, AIDS, poverty, etc. but they are all from Allah .

Your saying "it's NOT TRUE" without any evidence, especially contrary to what the Qur'an has said, is you treading on dangerous grounds. Do you not understand that the opposite of guidance is misguidance? Do you not understand that the Qur'an says that Allah guides whomsoever He wills and leads astray/misguides whomsoever He wills? To say that Allah did not create cancer is going against what He has said in the Qur'an: الله خالق كل شيء.

In Surah aal-'imraan, the following is mentioned:

قُلِ اللَّـهُمَّ مَالِكَ الْمُلْكِ تُؤْتِي الْمُلْكَ مَن تَشَاءُ وَتَنزِعُ الْمُلْكَ مِمَّن تَشَاءُ وَتُعِزُّ مَن تَشَاءُ وَتُذِلُّ مَن تَشَاءُ ۖ بِيَدِكَ الْخَيْرُ ۖ إِنَّكَ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ
So, everything positive and its opposite negative comes from Allah . The means may be different (e.g. shaytaan, other men and women, diseases, poverty), but they inevitably do come from Allah .

[siklop]

All evil and misguidance is from Allah and this is a fundamental belief of Islam. Allah may use the means of cancer, AIDS, poverty, etc. but they are all from Allah .

Your saying "it's NOT TRUE" without any evidence, especially contrary to what the Qur'an has said, is you treading on dangerous grounds. Do you not understand that the opposite of guidance is misguidance? Do you not understand that the Qur'an says that Allah guides whomsoever He wills and leads astray/misguides whomsoever He wills? To say that Allah did not create cancer is going against what He has said in the Qur'an: الله خالق كل شيء.

In Surah aal-'imraan, the following is mentioned:

قُلِ اللَّـهُمَّ مَالِكَ الْمُلْكِ تُؤْتِي الْمُلْكَ مَن تَشَاءُ وَتَنزِعُ الْمُلْكَ مِمَّن تَشَاءُ وَتُعِزُّ مَن تَشَاءُ وَتُذِلُّ مَن تَشَاءُ ۖ بِيَدِكَ الْخَيْرُ ۖ إِنَّكَ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ
So, everything positive and its opposite negative comes from Allah . The means may be different (e.g. shaytaan, other men and women, diseases, poverty), but they inevitably do come from Allah .

Im saying its NOT TRUE that ALL EVIL IS GIVEN BY ALLAH !!!!!

ALL the brothers examples of Evil, have man made roots - so this is unfair on Allah, when its our gift of free will thats causing the VAST VAST VAST VAST Majority of what MOST BELIEVERS DEEM to be EVIL !

You are being unfair on Allah, and are treading MORE dangerous Ground, in my opinion.

HERES THE EVIDENCE: NO EVIL IN UNIVERSE WITHOUT DISBELIEVING MANKIND AND DJINN! 100% FACT !

[Patamuta]

Im saying its NOT TRUE that ALL EVIL IS GIVEN BY ALLAH !!!!!

ALL the brothers examples of Evil, have man made roots - so this is unfair on Allah, when its our gift of free will thats causing the VAST VAST VAST VAST Majority of what MOST BELIEVERS DEEM to be EVIL !

You are being unfair on Allah, and are treading MORE dangerous Ground, in my opinion.

HERES THE EVIDENCE: NO EVIL IN UNIVERSE WITHOUT DISBELIEVING MANKIND AND DJINN! 100% FACT !

And yet another absurd, baseless post rife with shouting and emotion.

If Allah hadn't created mankind and the jinnaat, then there would be no evil (according to you). Allah misguides people which can lead to disbelief. So does that again not show that Allah created evil? Even in the Faatihah we read, we ask Allah to not lead us astray or to place his a'dhaab upon us because ultimately both are from Allah . You're contradicting such basic beliefs of Islam that it's mind boggling.

I've cited Qur'anic proof. Bring your proof and I will respond. Your emotional and baseless responses are just that and aren't worth replying to anymore until you bring your proof and not your angry rants.

[siklop]

And yet another absurd, baseless post rife with shouting and emotion.

If Allah hadn't created mankind and the jinnaat, then there would be no evil (according to you). Allah misguides people which can lead to disbelief. So does that again not show that Allah created evil? Even in the Faatihah we read, we ask Allah to not lead us astray or to place his a'dhaab upon us because ultimately both are from Allah . You're contradicting such basic beliefs of Islam that it's mind boggling.

I've cited Qur'anic proof. Bring your proof and I will respond. Your emotional and baseless responses are just that and aren't worth replying to anymore until you bring your proof and not your angry rants.

You are too literalistic for me, brother, we are on different pages.

Look at the bold, your words, "you said if hadnt created mankind" so then you say "misguides mankind", "so there", "shows you Allah creates evil".

My premise says NO mankind, and you included MANKIND to show Allah creates evil ??

You make such bare faced falshoods to prove Allah creates all evils that are primarliy man made ? Is that the best you got ? A bare faced distortion ?

On top of distorting my point that the brothers examples were man made in the VAST VAST VAST majority of cases that he is saying "Allah gives evil"

I think its a complex, you WANT ALLAH to give everyone evil so you are self righteous and safe in your salvation. Thats my opinion of this complex.

Peace