[Dumpishchaism]

I want to commence this thread for Muslims to realize that our power lies in our unity and a pursuit for Civilization supremacy by the Muslims is needed.

There are only three major civilizations competing today.

USA
European states
Islamic world

Other civilizations do exist but to me are not worthy of a pursuing a competition with. These include Indian civilization(1.2 billion), chinese civilization (1.5 billion), African Union, South american civilization. Other small independent nations or blocs are not significant as they exist independently with small populations e.g AUS/NZ, Canada, Singapore, Russia e.t.c.

Thus back to the three great civilizations which exist and with great histories and current influence
Islamic Union with 56 Muslim nations - estimate population 1.6 billion - GDP 6 trillion US$
United states of america - estimate population 314 million - GDP 15 trillion US$
European Union - 27 states - estimate population 500 million - GDP 17.5 trillion US$

With the Islamic revival, revolutions and religiousity spreading like wild fire across the Muslim world, our governments will inevitably become more responsible and more efficient. Subsequently an Islamic Union(along the lines perhaps of European Union) is inevitable in the next few decades since it doesnt seem a major radical change in nationhood back to pre-nation times is likely to occur with the current trends.

If we are to combine EU and USA we get a population exactly half the size of the Islamic union yet 5 times more valued in terms of gross economic output/year.That means on a per capita basis Westerners are roughly 10 times more materially prosperous than us. The obvious route to overcoming the lag lies in Uniting Muslims. There is ofcourse alot of catching upto do in terms of our material quality of life. We want a life where every Muslim has basics sorted out - food, shelter, clothing, education and health. Everything else will be a premium in our civilization which will simply mesmerize members of all other civilizations and give it the reverence which Islamic inspired civilization deserves. Great roads and infrastructure, architectural beauties, great scientific innovations and breakthroughs, intellectual debates and fine media and entertainment culture to replace current western hegemony. We will the ones providing aid, help and charity to other nations. We will be the prosperous promised nation and superior civilization Allah has promised us. Everyone then will want to study in the Muslim world, have their health concerns sorted out there and every non-Muslim will look for a better career life in our land like how most want to go to the west in current and recent history. Our Union will be crime free land, corruption minimum, an efficient administration, compassionate civilization with moral depravities in their minimum. Lands free for intellectual pursuit, advocacy and debate. And land where freedom of individual is protected as long as he behaves responsibly along societal norms. All Muslims living in the diaspora will also be considered part of the Islamic civilization through their affiliation with the faith. A Muslim living in canada will be inevitably linked with Muslims in the Islamic union even though he follows the laws of the land he lives in. His faith, values, lifestyle, culture will be reflective of an affiliation with the Islamic Union.

Any comments on what hinders us from forming such an Islamic Union immediately where member states co-operate based on our common Islamic ties. Is such a pursuit impractical or illusory? Please comment in the context of the reality that member states will continue their existence. I know Abu Zakir believes that the whole state today has to be replaced with a minimal government but assuming the state continues to exist along the lines and framework post-colonialism which looks like the indisputable trend of this century for the entire whole world. No revolution against the existance and idea of a state is even taken seriously apart from a few books on that. So please lets talk of the immediate future with modern states remaining as they are.

[Efksqhyu]

I want to commence this thread for Muslims to realize that our power lies in our unity and a pursuit for Civilization supremacy by the Muslims is needed.

There are only three major civilizations competing today.

USA
European states
Islamic world

Other civilizations do exist but to me are not worthy of a pursuing a competition with. These include Indian civilization(1.2 billion), chinese civilization (1.5 billion), African Union, South american civilization. Other small independent nations or blocs are not significant as they exist independently with small populations e.g AUS/NZ, Canada, Singapore, Russia e.t.c.

Thus back to the three great civilizations which exist and with great histories and current influence
Islamic Union with 56 Muslim nations - estimate population 1.6 billion - GDP 6 trillion US$
United states of america - estimate population 314 million - GDP 15 trillion US$
European Union - 27 states - estimate population 500 million - GDP 17.5 trillion US$

With the Islamic revival, revolutions and religiousity spreading like wild fire across the Muslim world, our governments will inevitably become more responsible and more efficient. Subsequently an Islamic Union(along the lines perhaps of European Union) is inevitable in the next few decades since it doesnt seem a major radical change in nationhood back to pre-nation times is likely to occur with the current trends.

If we are to combine EU and USA we get a population exactly half the size of the Islamic union yet 5 times more valued in terms of gross economic output/year.That means on a per capita basis Westerners are roughly 10 times more materially prosperous than us. The obvious route to overcoming the lag lies in Uniting Muslims. There is ofcourse alot of catching upto do in terms of our material quality of life. We want a life where every Muslim has basics sorted out - food, shelter, clothing, education and health. Everything else will be a premium in our civilization which will simply mesmerize members of all other civilizations and give it the reverence which Islamic inspired civilization deserves. Great roads and infrastructure, architectural beauties, great scientific innovations and breakthroughs, intellectual debates and fine media and entertainment culture to replace current western hegemony. We will the ones providing aid, help and charity to other nations. We will be the prosperous promised nation and superior civilization Allah has promised us. Everyone then will want to study in the Muslim world, have their health concerns sorted out there and every non-Muslim will look for a better career life in our land like how most want to go to the west in current and recent history. Our Union will be crime free land, corruption minimum, an efficient administration, compassionate civilization with moral depravities in their minimum. Lands free for intellectual pursuit, advocacy and debate. And land where freedom of individual is protected as long as he behaves responsibly along societal norms. All Muslims living in the diaspora will also be considered part of the Islamic civilization through their affiliation with the faith. A Muslim living in canada will be inevitably linked with Muslims in the Islamic union even though he follows the laws of the land he lives in. His faith, values, lifestyle, culture will be reflective of an affiliation with the Islamic Union.

Any comments on what hinders us from forming such an Islamic Union immediately where member states co-operate based on our common Islamic ties. Is such a pursuit impractical or illusory? Please comment in the context of the reality that member states will continue their existence. I know Abu Zakir believes that the whole state today has to be replaced with a minimal government but assuming the state continues to exist along the lines and framework post-colonialism which looks like the indisputable trend of this century for the entire whole world. No revolution against the existance and idea of a state is even taken seriously apart from a few books on that. So please lets talk of the immediate future with modern states remaining as they are.

I'm pretty sure that the primary things that hinders the Muslims from forming an Islamic Union are;

1. ethnic nationalism amongst the Muslims

2. very real non-Muslim interference that works against efforts of union

3. a lack of understanding that political unity of the Muslim Ummah is a very real and important part of the religion

4. the fact that Arabic is not the language of higher secular education non-Arab Muslim countries (this weakens the language that should unite all Muslims at an intellectual level).

__________________________________________________ _______________________


you may find this of video of people in Damascus calling for the Caliphate interest brother

http://www.khi lafah.com/index.php/multimedia/video/14082-video-huge-crowd-in-damascus-calls-for-khilafah

it is on the HT website which Sunniforum doesn't link to (no doubt for very good reasons), but if you paste these two segments into the address bar and join them then you can see it InshaAllah

[ViaxobbimeVar]

States that are over governed with a massive government will naturally decline and become corrupt. Taxes will be too high to pay all the government workers, and private companies will not be able to compete in a State rigged or controlled market. Ibn Khaldun said in his book there comes a time when taxes are too high and people become de-motivated to produce anything because most of the money is taken away by the State. The State does not produce anything it lives by confiscating wealth from the productive members of society. It is a parasite...as the power of the parasitic State increases it creates the seeds to its own destruction. The only way people can build civillization is by having a small government which is human in scale and one which does not interfere with people too much leaves them to govern themselves.

[Dumpishchaism]

You are right AbuZakir in some of your points. I dont believe absolute socio-economic equality for all citizens is an aim or objective we should aggressively pursue for and in aiming such design oppressive laws like super high taxation. However you should realize that taxation although not Islamically inspired has actually works in most countries. You should realize that humans are generally irreligious in nature. Selfish in nature, miserly and very few are genuine compassionate self-sacrifical people. Taxation counteracts that human nature so that the most neediest in society have basic needs sustained. So Taxation is one of the issues on which we perhaps need detailed Fatwa and jurisprudential analysis. Zakat is not tax based to revenue government for secular activities like roads, hospitals, technology, universities, elections, infrastructure e.t.c. I would have thought its mainly for interpersonal charity I think. People and the world are selfish people remember that. Zakat is not adequate to finance some of the major projects government is involved in to provide minimum needs to all in this 21st century.

[Efksqhyu]

States that are over governed with a massive government will naturally decline and become corrupt. Taxes will be too high to pay all the government workers, and private companies will not be able to compete in a State rigged or controlled market. Ibn Khaldun said in his book there comes a time when taxes are too high and people become de-motivated to produce anything because most of the money is taken away by the State. The State does not produce anything it lives by confiscating wealth from the productive members of society. It is a parasite...as the power of the parasitic State increases it creates the seeds to its own destruction. The only way people can build civillization is by having a small government which is human in scale and one which does not interfere with people too much leaves them to govern themselves.

This is true, also the force of Assabiyah that Ibn Khaldun analyses in his Muqqadima is right now flowing amongst the Arabs and is leading them towards rejuvenation and Islam InshaAllah. The rebels and Arab spring groups are the modern equivalent of Ibn Khaldun's vigorous tribes who wipe away the corrupt and effeminated existing order. Muslim unity, even Caliphate is becoming closer by the day InshaAllah as the forces that have suppressed them are gradually toppling in Darussalam, see this inspiring video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLNLc...eature=related

[ViaxobbimeVar]

However you should realize that taxation although not Islamically inspired has actually works in most countries. You should realize that humans are generally irreligious in nature. Selfish in nature, miserly and very few are genuine compassionate self-sacrifical people. Taxation counteracts that human nature so that the most neediest in society have basic needs sustained.

You are assuming that people in power are better placed at deciding who gets what (through taxation). They are not. Sadaqa and charity giving is a voluntery act of individuals. People are only selfish because they live in a riba based economy where money is tightly controlled by afew banker elites. Many taxes are collected by governments to go towards interest payments to bankers and the so called National Debt. It is all corrupt.

[Dumpishchaism]

You are assuming that people in power are better placed at deciding who gets what (through taxation). They are not. Sadaqa and charity giving is a voluntery act of individuals. People are only selfish because they live in a riba based economy where money is tightly controlled by afew banker elites. Many taxes are collected by governments to go towards interest payments to bankers and the so called National Debt. It is all corrupt.

So how do we fund health care, public education, basic welfare, roads and infrastructure?

[suilusargaino]

Zakat is not tax based to revenue government for secular activities like roads, hospitals, technology, universities, elections, infrastructure e.t.c. I would have thought its mainly for interpersonal charity I think.

As-salamu 'alaikum wa rahmatu Allahi wa barakatuh

Zakah is not just personal charity. The goverment is involved in Zakah, case in point the Riddah wars fought by Abu Bakr (ra) because some tribes refused to give Zakah.

[ViaxobbimeVar]

So how do we fund health care, public education, basic welfare, roads and infrastructure?

The Muslim world used to have Waqfs of perpetual charitable endowments set up by rich Muslims, Imara (you can search for waqf and imara on google), roads can be built by collecting tolls from road users, see turnpyke roads (on google to see how goo roads were built in the past in the west by private companies). Garbage collectors, electriity lines etc. plumbing can also be built by private companies competing against each other, not protected by the State (as they are now). But it does not have to be in any of these ways I mentioned, people should be able to find solutions themselves without some State Central Planners making problems with their stupid plans. All we need is a good small government ensuring that no haram activities are taking place either in the development and protection of corporations or in making riba appear in any transactions...this will ensure success and victory. The Ottomons used to have free hostels for travellers on roads, they may have been basic but travellers used to get rest, peace and provisions.

[Dumpishchaism]

The Muslim world used to have Waqfs of perpetual charitable endowments set up by rich Muslims, Imara (you can search for waqf and imara on google), roads can be built by collecting tolls from road users, see turnpyke roads (on google to see how goo roads were built in the past in the west by private companies). Garbage collectors, electriity lines etc. plumbing can also be built by private companies competing against each other, not protected by the State (as they are now). But it does not have to be in any of these ways I mentioned, people should be able to find solutions themselves without some State Central Planners making problems with their stupid plans. All we need is a good small government ensuring that no haram activities are taking place either in the development and protection of corporations or in making riba appear in any transactions...this will ensure success and victory. The Ottomons used to have free hostels for travellers on roads, they may have been basic but travellers used to get rest, peace and provisions.

Actually after all these discussions on SF I realize I still think we have different ideas as to what a government's role in society is. However I hope everyone is in consensus that the below criteria will do good

- great economic and scientific ambitions within Islamic acceptable boundaries
- Islamic civilizational excellence (watch this video please from start to end 11 minutes) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbW-EXTErLc
- dont intrude on religious liberties and freedoms of any citizen/group
- meritrocracy in leadership selection not a judgement based on predominant evaluation of religious knowledge/piety.

I think what sounds innately logical is that the best Muslims who are the engine of dawah will always appear according to Allah's will. These are the heirs of the prophets whose work is not the dunya. Thats why Quran specifically mentions it as a group of the Muslim population. Now this ayat specifically refers to these invaluable great religious men and groups who have enlightened the lands of Muslims and most of them are not affiliated with government. SO this notion that group of people refered to in the Quranic ayat are politicians and government administrators is a joke.

003.104 Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong: They are the ones to attain felicity.


Think of all the greatest scholars in Islamic history I mention below(not ordered in priority of greatness). None of them were were involved or interested in direct governmental administration

Imam Malik, Imam Ahmed ibn Hanbal, Shafi, Abu Hanifa, The great Muhaditheen - Tirmidhi, Bukhari, Muslim e.t.c., Abu al-Hasan al-Ash'ari, Hakim al Nishapuri. Abu Hamid al Ghazzali, Ibn Al-Arabi, Ibn Hajar al asqalani, Imam al Suyuti, Imam Rabbani, Shah Waliullah. Bediuzamman Said Nursi, Deoband greats and innumerable other scholars I have left out

Islamic faith in society depends and is influenced by such people not on government shoulders
I am all for your ideas about small government and ceasation of riba transactions which I think are great but leadership, politicians and religion has to be distinguished for what role they play in society

[Maydayvar]

There is no islamic world! It is group of mostly dis-functional power hungry political parties and families competing against one another. in such scenario no civilisation exist.

[Dumpishchaism]

ARTICLE SOURCED FROM HARUN YAHYA WEBSITE
http://harunyahya.com/en/works/22325...-Islamic-world

From Indonesia to Chad, the Turkish Islamic Union will unite the entire Islamic world


With its population amounting to approximately 1.5 billion (Muslims make up one fourth of the world population), its mineral resources, and the strategic importance of the geography, the Islamic world is a great power. From Indonesia to Chad, the Caucasus to Tanzania, and Morocco to Fiji, the Islamic world now stretches over a huge area and covers the lands that gave rise to the greatest civilizations in history. The region's geopolitical, cultural, and geo-economic qualities place this geography on the agenda of international relations and world politics even today.

The fact that crossroads and transit routes of world trade are located within this area is among the important factors. Considering that the canals and straights joining the Black Sea to the Mediterranean sea, the Mediterranean Sea and the Persian Gulf to the Indian Ocean are under Muslim control, the Islamic world's importance in terms of global balance becomes better understood. Additionally, the world's richest lands, in terms of such strategically important natural resources as oil and natural gas, are located in Muslim countries. The effective use of these resources represents a strategic opportunity for the Islamic world to increase its impact on world politics.

The current situation clearly suggests that Muslims will influence the developments of the twenty-first century in one way or another. However, what really matters here is that this influence must benefit the Islamic world in particular and humanity in general. The first thing that comes to mind at this stage is whether the Islamic world can play such a role, given its present condition. No doubt, Muslims have the necessary ability and awareness to shoulder this responsibility. However, looking at Muslim nations today reveals many problems, among them the lack of established democracy, the inability to keep up with technological progress, and an underdeveloped economy. An Islamic world preparing to play an active role in world politics must solve these and similar problems first.

The Islamic world's disunity and fragmentation is an even more urgent and vital problem that must be resolved. The fact that the Muslims have not been able to create a powerful and active Islamic Union is a major contributor to many of today's ills. When a strong Islamic Union is formed, such problems will either not arise or will be resolved far quicker than anticipated.

It must be stated here that the diversity found in the Islamic world, as well as the existence of various schools of Islamic thought, is not an issue in this regard. Muslims’ liberation from this diversity does not mean that they will be gathered under a single administration or system. Rather, this diversity must be united under the umbrella of faith and on the basis of mutual tolerance and solidarity. Differences of thought, practice, or point of view are normal and common in all societies. Islamic morality requires that Muslims never forget that they are all brothers and sisters, irrespective of their differences. Whatever the race, language, nation, or branch of Islam one might follow, all Muslims are brothers and sisters. Therefore, such differences must be appreciated as a source of richness instead of as a source of potential conflict and fragmentation. Such a mistaken view only diverts one's attention from the real issues and delays urgently needed and important preventive action.

The solution lies in forming an Islamic Union that will unite all Muslims and guide them to the right path. Therefore, every Muslim must work for its creation.

1. All Muslim governments should prepare for the Islamic Union by developing their relations with other Muslim countries and organizing cultural activities that will help establish true Islamic morality in their countries.
2. All Muslim NGOs, associations, charities, members of the media, and intellectual leaders should make genuine efforts to resolve the differences between Muslims and to achieve unity and solidarity.
3. All Muslims should work to create this Islamic unity, regardless of the mosque or school they attend, the Internet sites that they visit, and the charities or associations to which they belong. Moreover, they must encourage other Muslims to follow their example.
It is the prayer of all Muslims that the great Islamic civilization, one that will bring goodness, justice, and peace to Muslims and non-Muslims alike, will flourish once more. God willing, the formation of the Islamic Union will bring all of this about.

All Muslims who wish to play a role in this holy duty should make the following prayer and then act upon it:
Come, let's heal the rifts between Muslims. Let's bridge the gaps between Muslims who do not pray in one another's mosques, who do not read each others books, and who are hostile to one another because of small ideological differences. Let's do away with such artificial segregations. Let the house of God, the mosque, be the place of worship of not this group or that sect but of all Muslims. Let every Muslim greet and talk with every other Muslim. Let's end the disputes between communities or individuals, and let all Muslims work hand in hand in humility and tolerance to serve God's religion.

Let's not forget God's command:

Hold fast to the rope of Allah all together, and do not separate. Remember Allah’s blessing to you when you were enemies and He joined your hearts together so that you became brothers by His blessing. You were on the very brink of a pit of the Fire and He rescued you from it. In this way Allah makes His Signs clear to you, so that hopefully you will be guided. (Surah Al’ Imran, 103)