[DumbNelmcrece]

Big Government where it is thought that people in power can make policies that will increase the happiness of the whole society is a religion these days, even Muslims have been infected by this.

When the Rasul was told that people were raising food prices in the market in Madina during a drought, he replied that he could not control the price all he would do was try to encourage the merchants through preaching to them to not do it.

Today most of us would want the government to control the price. This is a problem, when government interfere in this way they create un-intended consequence which make the problems worse. Socialism fails because it adopts Central Planning and Social Engineering and does not want to leave people to govern themselves.

[Kghyutgykim]

When the Rasul was told that people were raising food prices in the market in Madina during a drought, he replied that he could not control the price all he would do was try to encourage the merchants through preaching to them to not do it.

can you provide a reference and the exact wording of the hadeeth

also, socialism is far more logical and inline with islam than capitalism.

Would you rather have a state owned media, or a privately owned media? Would you rather the state owns the assets of the nations or powerful wealthy unaccountable individuals? Would you rather defence companies have the option of simply moving abroad with all their assets, or would you rather they are state owned?

We dont follow either ideology in totality, but there is a lot of good in socialism that I personally would implement if i was the khalifah.

Can you provide any evidence for your suggested system being better than socialist principles? Also can you provide full details of what you propose as a system?

[DumbNelmcrece]

[QUOTE]

can you provide a reference and the exact wording of the hadeeth

Not at the moment.


also, socialism is far more logical and inline with islam than capitalism. Depends on your definition, Capitalism minus riba is not Capitalism. Socialism by individuals not government is Islamic.

Would you rather have a state owned media, or a privately owned media? Would you rather the state owns the assets of the nations or powerful wealthy unaccountable individuals? Would you rather defence companies have the option of simply moving abroad with all their assets, or would you rather they are state owned? Defense contractors are private companies they are profitable only because of the riba economy, where governments confiscate peoples money and buys the products. Privately owned media that is regulated is better than state owned media.

We dont follow either ideology in totality, but there is a lot of good in socialism that I personally would implement if i was the khalifah. You sound like a dangerous man...people like this should be prevented from gaining power.


Can you provide any evidence for your suggested system being better than socialist principles? Also can you provide full details of what you propose as a system? You do not need a system, the Salafus Salih did not have a system, they simply governed knowing that they did not have the power to spy on people or to control them, or ther money.

Saudi is secular in the sense that it has a Central Bank that is based on Riba and it spreads this version of Islam abroad.

[UrUROFlS]

Book : Small is Beautiful
Author : E.F. Schumacher

Wikipedia

IIT Mumbai (Grab your e-copy)

Eco Books

Amazon

I try to bring the Amazon review also here, IA.

[KhJOHbTM]

Again, anyone who wants to get a good picture of the governance of the Khulafa Rashidun, should not rely on applying contemporary political philosophies like straitjackets over the breathing truth of al-Islam. Read the books by Dr. Ali as-Sallabi and they'll give you a complete, accurate picture.

http://www.kalamullah.com/ali-sallabi.html

[Rx-Ultram]

Big Government where it is thought that people in power can make policies that will increase the happiness of the whole society is a religion these days, even Muslims have been infected by this.

When the Rasul was told that people were raising food prices in the market in Madina during a drought, he replied that he could not control the price all he would do was try to encourage the merchants through preaching to them to not do it.

Today most of us would want the government to control the price. This is a problem, when government interfere in this way they create un-intended consequence which make the problems worse. Socialism fails because it adopts Central Planning and Social Engineering and does not want to leave people to govern themselves.

جزاك اللهُ خيراً, its sad to find out how many muslims are still infected with the disease known as socialism, this idealogy makes free believers into slaves of governments that seek to control the very private affairs of its citizens, taking away all the responsibility of a man resulting in dependancy.

There are many muslims in the arab world like AbuFatima who yell slogans of salfusaleh and shariah but in practice are communists through and through, they are worse than their predecessors.

[UrUROFlS]

An Amazon Review by Tony Theil
In my college days I struggled with economics and barely passed. My economic professors and the course material were dull, ambiguous, and non-stimulating. None of these adjectives could be used to describe Schumacher's Small is Beautiful: Economics as if People Mattered.

Schumacher makes economics come alive with wit, humor, and practicality. His approach is qualitative, not quantitative. A recurring statement throughout the book epitomizes his philosophy, "Why use the computer if you can make the calculation on the back of an envelope"? He gives the science a personality when identifying the disparities between the rich and poor, the educated and uneducated, and the gap between city people and country-folk.

Small is Beautiful created a humanistic economics movement. It's a wholistic approach containing ethical, ecological, and metaphysical components that are missing from the statistical models that solely measure GNP. Schumacher sounded the alarm regarding globalization when asking "how much further 'growth' will be possible, since infinate growth in a finite environment is an obvious impossibility". He was critical of a society that generates unbounded materialism, and motivated by greed and envy.

Some of the more interesting of the 20 essays are: "Peace and Permanence", "The Role of Economics", "Buddhist Economics", "The Greatest Resource - Education", "Technology with a Human Face", "Development of Intermediate Technology", and "Two Million Villages".

Although the book was written in 1973, it is as timely now as it was then. The 25th anniversary edition contains provocative updates provided as sidebars by contributors such as Hazel Henderson, Peter Warshall, Amory Lovins, Godric Bader, et al. My Capsule
The book Small is Beautiful

(1) Collection of 13 essays (20 in later edition) by British economist, E.F.Schumacher, who had worked with John Maynard Keynes and John Kenneth Galbraith, was published in 1973.
(2) The Times Literary Supplement ranked Small Is Beautiful among the 100 most influential books published since World War II.
(3) Single-minded concentration on output and technology is dehumanizing.
(4) Infinite economic growth is impossible within a finite system.
(5) Subtitle of the book - a Study of Economics as if People Mattered.
(6) Another Book by him: Good Work
(7) Good Work: The effects of modern economics on the individual.
(8) Yet another book by him : A Guide for the Perplexed
(9) Its Subject Matter : the philosophical and spiritual underpinnings of his work.
(10) Work coincided with ecological concerns and environmental movement.
(11) Concluded that government effort must be concentrated on sustainable development.
(12) Ideas grow out of study of village economics later termed Buddhist economics.
(13) Blasted bigger is better and growth is good slogans.
(14) Man is small, and, therefore, small is beautiful.
(15) First to question GNP as a measure of human well being.
(16) A professor's advice to student: Read the book but do not quote it to protect your reputation - he will also turn out to be right in the end.
(17) Critic : Messy, digressive writing. Point does not become clear by the end of the chapter. Vague and worthless solutions without any idea about implementation.
(18) Critic's summary of ideas: Intermediate technology, think locally, value people, distinguish between renewable and non-renewable resources

[Kghyutgykim]

جزاك اللهُ خيراً, its sad to find out how many muslims are still infected with the disease known as socialism, this idealogy makes free believers into slaves of governments that seek to control the very private affairs of its citizens, taking away all the responsibility of a man resulting in dependancy.

There are many muslims in the arab world like AbuFatima who yell slogans of salfusaleh and shariah but in practice are communists through and through, they are worse than their predecessors.

astagfirullah akhi im not a communist, I just think taht giving huge amounts of power to private corporations and teh media etc is dangeorus. Look at UK, the most strategic thing for europe to do is merge into one country as the EU, yet teh media continues to bang out harmful anti EU propaganda that makes british people very opposed to the EU. Also, because of capitalism, UK businesses have moved their companies overseas due to cheaper labour and so teh UK is in real trouble. I work for a company involved in the building of generators so have quite a good view of what is happening in the economy and I can tell you that the UK is really suffering at the moment, everyone knows the economy is in toruble but if you get furtehr insight into what is going on you will see an imending collapse here, its really not in a good way.

So would we want this for Muslim lands? people who own 90% of the media and put out propaganda to the highest bidder, people who own corporations and pay bribes to get contracts etc?

I support state ownership.

I dont support one pay for everyone, I dont support atheism or secularism, I dont support revolt against the rulers, I dont support guerilla warfare, there is a lot of things i dislike in communism

[Rx-Ultram]

astagfirullah akhi im not a communist, I just think taht giving huge amounts of power to private corporations and teh media etc is dangeorus. Look at UK, the most strategic thing for europe to do is merge into one country as the EU, yet teh media continues to bang out harmful anti EU propaganda that makes british people very opposed to the EU. Also, because of capitalism, UK businesses have moved their companies overseas due to cheaper labour and so teh UK is in real trouble. I work for a company involved in the building of generators so have quite a good view of what is happening in the economy and I can tell you that the UK is really suffering at the moment, everyone knows the economy is in toruble but if you get furtehr insight into what is going on you will see an imending collapse here, its really not in a good way.

So would we want this for Muslim lands? people who own 90% of the media and put out propaganda to the highest bidder, people who own corporations and pay bribes to get contracts etc?

I support state ownership.

I dont support one pay for everyone, I dont support atheism or secularism, I dont support revolt against the rulers, I dont support guerilla warfare, there is a lot of things i dislike in communism

In essence, you believe the government has the right to steal privately owned businesses and corporations, you have no salaf-many of the sahaba were successful and rich traders, they would not have approved if the caliphs stole their private properties, it is enough they paid zakah.

please bring proof for state ownership from islamic sources, because i cant find any precedence for it, the caliphs applied the hukm of allah and the sunna of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم

[DumbNelmcrece]

astagfirullah akhi im not a communist, I just think taht giving huge amounts of power to private corporations and teh media etc is dangeorus. Look at UK, the most strategic thing for europe to do is merge into one country as the EU, yet teh media continues to bang out harmful anti EU propaganda that makes british people very opposed to the EU.

Traditional Sunni Fiqh prohibits private corporations to operate as they do in the Capitalist economy. Private companies are highly regulated. The Salafis by rejecting traditional fiqh and 'taqleed' have indirectly allowed corporations to function and have made everything halal. Salafism is perfect for introducing riba in the economy.

[Rx-Ultram]

Traditional Sunni Fiqh prohibits private corporations to operate as they do in the Capitalist economy. Private companies are highly regulated. The Salafis by rejecting traditional fiqh and 'taqleed' have indirectly allowed corporations to function and have made everything halal. Salafism is perfect for introducing riba in the economy.

private corporations never were "highly regulated" simply because the state never had the power and reach to tightly regulate businesses.
I'd like to see proponents of strict regulation of business to bring precedence for their ideas.

[DumbNelmcrece]

The idea that the corporation has a legal personality that operates indefinetly with limited liability is a Capitalist legal invention. Most traditional scholars see this as haram. Islam never had corporations..in any future Islamic economy the development of such entities by law would be highly proscribed.

private corporations never were "highly regulated" simply because the state never had the power and reach to tightly regulate businesses.
I'd like to see proponents of strict regulation of business to bring precedence for their ideas.

[CHEAPPoem]

If the Messenger salla Llahu 'alayhi wa alihi wa sallam came to share out wealth equally, he would never have handed out the war booty along the old tribal lines (i.e. to Abu Sufyan et al once they accepted Islam due to being from the مؤلفة قلوبهم ); he would have instead distributed it equally amongst the muhajirun, ansar and tulaqa'. This is, in fact, a proof of his prophethood - if his purpose would have been the re-distribution of wealth, he would have removed the wealth from the leaders of the Quraysh once he had the power to do so; the fact that he didn't indicates that his purpose was sincerely to convey the message of Allah, no more, no less.

@ Abu Fatima, re: fixing prices. . .

The two relevant hadiths are here:

واستدلوا أيضاً بما رواه الترمذي بسنده عن أنس رضي الله عنه قال: غلا السعر على عهد رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال: الناس يا رسول الله غلا السعر فسعر لنا، فقال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم: إن الله هو المسعر القابض الباسط الرازق، وإني لأرجو أن ألقى الله وليس أحد منكم يطلبني في دم ولا مال. رواه الخمسه إلا النسائي وصححه ابن حبان وقال أبو عيسى الترمذي: حديث حسن صحيح.

وبما رواه أبو داود بسنده عن أبي هريرة رضي الله عنه: أن رجلاً جاء فقال: يا رسول الله، سعر، فقال: بل أدعو ثم جاء، رجل فقال: يا رسول الله، سعر، فقال: بل الله يخفض ويرفع وإني لأرجو أن ألقى الله وليس لأحد عندي مظلمة. إسناده حسن كما قال الحافظ ابن حجر. The Hanafis, Shafi'is and Hanbalis generally all prohibited it in same way or other under normal circumstances. The Malikis permitted it.

As for exceptional circumstances, the later Hanafi scholars as well as Ibn Taymiyyah and his group permitted it. I think one of the reasons the later Hanafi scholars ended up permitting it under these circumstances was the fact that they actually had the experience of ruling. Apparently, the later Zaydi imams had the same opinion, probably for the same reason. However, these circumstances are pretty exceptional, as outlined in the Fatawa Hindiyyah:

ولا يسعر بالإجماع إلا إذا كان أرباب الطعام يتعدون عن القيمة، وعجز القاضي عن صيانة حقوق المسلمين إلا بالتسعير، فلا بأس به بمشورة أهل الرأي والبصر وهو المختار وبه يفتى. The gist of it is that price-fixing is prohibitted unless the Qadi is unable to fulfill the rights of the Muslims without it, being a last resort. Clearly, even this opinion does not fit in with the socialist model where this sort of thing is the standard, regardless of circumstance and imposed on everyone forcefully.

Imam ash-Shafi'i affirms this in the context of commenting on a hadith, that to do so would be injustice, and it is not for anyone to interfere with a person's wealth without their consent:

وبه أقول لأن الناس مسلطون على أموالهم ليس لأحد أن يأخذها ولا شيئاً منها بغير طيب أنفسهم إلا في المواضع التي تلتزمهم، وهذا ليس منها For a nice list of relevant quotes, have a look at this: http://www.islamweb.net/fatwa/index....twaId&Id=26530

[CHEAPPoem]

and it's true, Arab econmoic discourse is plagued with socialist ideas due their exposure to the communists and the arab nationalists. that's not to say pure capitalism is in any way better... rather, we have to attempt to take a step back from the predominant economic models, forget about our own personal beliefs and honestly examine our tradition.

[squeerisott]

جزاك اللهُ خيراً, its sad to find out how many muslims are still infected with the disease known as socialism, this idealogy makes free believers into slaves of governments that seek to control the very private affairs of its citizens, taking away all the responsibility of a man resulting in dependancy.

There are many muslims in the arab world like AbuFatima who yell slogans of salfusaleh and shariah but in practice are communists through and through, they are worse than their predecessors.

That is very harsh and I would say close to slander. Why do you feel the need to insult and denigrate people you disagree with? This was what I was talking about in that other thread.

This lack of manners and ability to converse without insulting or questioning people's faith doesn't seem very Islamic or something of the Prophet's (SAW) Sunnah.

[UrUROFlS]

(1) Though I have posted a few things on Schumacher's Small is Beautiful but it should not be taken as my endorsement of his ideology. For me Islam is the deciding factor.
(2) So far I do know of any principle that says that any useful system has to be small to be Islamic.
(3) Western obsession with big is perhaps because of practical reasons - they are sure that if there is one big thing around they can always keep its control with them.

Wallhualam.

[DumbNelmcrece]

[QUOTE]

((3) Western obsession with big is perhaps because of practical reasons - they are sure that if there is one big thing around they can always keep its control with them.

Wallhualam.

Gigantism (or bigness), happens because of the Central Planning and Social Engineering functions in western society. This is largely underpinned by Riba, Central Banking and Fractional Reserve Banking. Take the Riba away and the large pools of fake money that are collected would not be possible.

This book is a must read for all Muslims:
http://www.muslimsofnorwich.org.uk/?page_id=2231
BANKING: THE ROOT CAUSE OF THE INJUSTICES OF OUR TIME


Editors: Abdalhalim Orr and Abdassamad Clarke
The original 1987 Norwich seminar Usury: The Root Cause of the Injustices of Our Time, whose proceedings form the core of this work, had an extraordinary effect. After the endless analyses and altercations of left and right to which we were accustomed, here was an argument that went to the core of the matter in one bound, and yet did so with a degree of scholarship and indeed erudition that was not cavalier. The result was electric. It was also well before its time.

This book contains the texts of the original lectures as well as some contemporary material that updates it. The 80

[Kghyutgykim]

In essence, you believe the government has the right to steal privately owned businesses and corporations, you have no salaf-many of the sahaba were successful and rich traders, they would not have approved if the caliphs stole their private properties, it is enough they paid zakah.

please bring proof for state ownership from islamic sources, because i cant find any precedence for it, the caliphs applied the hukm of allah and the sunna of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم

akhi I never said teh state can steal property, nor have I advocated one quanitity of wealth for everyone. In fact I clearly said this is something I disagree with in communism. But the state should run the army, health service, electricty grid, defence and science research, space exploration, media and other key things. The cleaner shouldnt get paid the same as the rocket scientist however.

As for trade, no problem with this, grocery stores shouldnt be state owned. And the state shoudlnt steal property off of individuals, but no muslim can claim to own the vats oil fields in teh muslim land, this wealth shoudl belong to all muslims and we should all benefit in the way of roads etc, rather than one person becoming a billionairre from it.

[Kghyutgykim]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/fight-save-...035415958.html

the problem with capitalism is that each individual is only thinking about profit, the system isnt designed to benefit the country as a whole. So you will have many companies taking decisions that harm the country, just because they can make a bit of profit out of it

[DumbNelmcrece]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/fight-save-...035415958.html

the problem with capitalism is that each individual is only thinking about profit, the system isnt designed to benefit the country as a whole. So you will have many companies taking decisions that harm the country, just because they can make a bit of profit out of it

No the problem with capitalism is riba and the fact that the corporation has been given limited liability rights and a legal personality. Working for a profit is natural...and the idea that somehow managers in government who are not working for a profit are better able to decide what is or is not right is false.