[DeilMikina]

@Arif2...

"Say he is Allah, the One and Only" Even this is pantheistic because it states that Allah is all that exist and to say that anything other than Allah exist is shirk

That's completely ridiculous, the verse is translated in numerous ways all of them say something like "Say: He is Allah he is one" or in this case "1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;" this ayah does not mention creation at all in any translation or the original Arabic.

Arif...Are you telling me that saying that "ALLAH is all that exist" is contrary to monotheism?! I think this is "extreme monotheism" but definitely not contrary to it.

Saying Allah is indistinguishable from his creation (a'udhu billah) is contrary to Monotheism.
Saying Allah is the only thing that exists is contrary to Islam. Allah is the only ilah. We are his creation, he brought the dunya and akhira and everything else into existence.


And again, I say, study pantheism to understand, not a wiki definition. I read plenty of Hindu (Shaiva and Vaishnava) and Jain literature before I came to Islam, thanks.

Pan=All Theism=God, Poly=many Theism=God...not the same term. When did I claim they were? I never touched the issue of pantheism being shirk. I just said it is contrary to Islam.

Now you are correct in the idea that pantheist equate the universe with God. But the question I again ask is where and which time period? Can you attach places, peoples, and years to your claims? I'm not playing this game, bro.

So what am I if I respect nature? I didn't say "worship" nature? I never accused you of worshiping nature. I intentionally worded my posts the way I did to clearly and explicitly refrain from doing that because you stated you didn't.

You see, there is pantheism as a philosophy and there's a current as a religion....trying to be anyway but it's so scientific that it negates all forms of spirituality. If it's so scientific where is the proof? What does that have to do with anything anyway?

But referring to science, the heavens gave birth to you and I though Allah is the ultimate creator. There is no difference between Islam and Science Bro, you're not making sense here, neither one of your statements, at least in an Islamic context.

and that which connects the two is called pantheism: respect for nature. This is your claim and not the claim of any secular, Muslim, Christian, Jewish, hindu, etc. scholar.

Respect for nature is called "respect for nature". Belief that the Creator and creation are the same thing (a'udhu billah) is called "pantheism".

why respect what doesn't have value? You respect Allah because he has value. His value to you is that he sustains you. You respect you sheikhs because they teach you. In the process of analogy, you respect all that is beneficial for you. So you get your food from nature and when you die, your body will return to nature but your soul to Allah..... I respect scholars because Allah and his Rasul told me to respect my Muslim brothers and those who are knowledgeable in addition to respecting every human being on a basic level.
I get my food from Allah .

your body will return to nature but your soul to Allah This is not correct. Body and soul return to Allah for judgement on the day of reckoning.

So you can deny it but you respect nature because it is very important... Rasulullah :SAW: even stated that he could not see into people's hearts, yet you claim you can see in to mine? I reiterate, I respect nature only because it is befitting of a Muslim.

Aside from that, nature is irrelevant aside from any incidental role it may bear in a test Allah places before you. "Nature" won't even exist after Qiyamah.

Nature is the closest any intelligent being will ever get to Allah in this life. This is an incorrect and very disturbing view.

[Kennypor]

Again Arif2,

Was Allah not here first? Was he not always here? What did he created us from? Was it not existence/Be/Being/Been? And what is this?

If Allah is almighty (ALL MIGHTY) then NONE CAN EXIST BUT HIM. We're here at his discretion....he said exist and we became. Not disturbing just too simple for the complexities you believe maybe. As far as Tariqahs, many from Morocco to Iran especially from our side....

I see that you separate Science and Islam...big up to Yahyah Harayah...I don't agree with his views but they are definitely nourishing. I don't separate the two...I respect nature because if I need Allah then it is obvious that i need all that he created...good, evil, life, death, food, water, clothing, shelter....nothing we have is by mystery.....this is where you and I differ.

My apologies of accusing you of calling pantheism shirk. But you definitely don't know much about it. islam is both panentheistic and pantheistic....both are the same but pantheism is personal. Now you have said pantheists believe the universe is God? How so when what is termed as pantheism existed before the textbook definition? How so when many early pantheists knew nothing of an "universe"?

Like i have said, muslim use to say when people have seizures, that the person was possessed by a Jin...this is pantheism my friend. Now, please, research it, buy a few books, sit and talk with some Native Americans and African animists....then you will understand all that I say.

[DeilMikina]

Again Arif2,
Was Allah not here first? Was he not always here? What did he created us from? Was it not existence/Be/Being/Been? And what is this?

"'And indeed We created man (Adam) out of an extract of clay (water and earth)." Surat Al-Mu'minun"

If Allah is almighty (ALL MIGHTY) then NONE CAN EXIST BUT HIM. The kalima is "La ilaha ilAllah" "there is no God but Allah" not "There is nothing that exists but Allah".

We're here at his discretion....he said exist and we became. Not disturbing just too simple for the complexities you believe maybe. I can't even reply to this without losing my good manners, so I will respectfully refrain. I'm sorry.

As far as Tariqahs, many from Morocco to Iran especially from our side.... So it's some tarqiahs in Morroco and Iran, not all of them, as you claimed.

I see that you separate and Islam...big up to Yahyah Harayah...I don't agree with his views but they are definitely nourishing. I don't even know who that is.

I don't separate the two...I respect nature because if I need Allah then it is obvious that i need all that he created...good, evil, life, death, food, water, clothing, shelter....nothing we have is by mystery.....this is where you and I differ. My apologies of accusing you of calling pantheism shirk. But you definitely don't know much about it. I didn't say it wasn't shirk either. It's not my call to make, I am not qualified for such a statement.

islam is both panentheistic and pantheistic....both are the same but pantheism is personal. Islam is pure Monotheism, alone and only. Any deviance from that is not Islam. Period.

Now you have said pantheists believe the universe is God? How so when what is termed as pantheism existed before the textbook definition? How so when many early pantheists knew nothing of an "universe"? Wikipedia said "universe". I said "creation". Your statement is invalid.

Like i have said, muslim use to say when people have seizures, that the person was possessed by a Jin...this is pantheism my friend. No, it's not. Allah is the one and only ilah. He is distinct from and separate from his creation. Everything and anything that occurs only occurs with his permission.

Now, please, research it, buy a few books, sit and talk with some Native Americans and African animists....then you will understand all that I say. So you're telling me, in order to understand Islam I need to go and sit with Mushriks? A'udhu billah...

Bro, your whole issue seems to be with the definition of "pantheism". I didn't make the definition, no one on this forum did either. If you have a problem with the definition talk to webster's or wikipedia or encyclopedia britannica.

With all due respect, I'm going to have to leave it at this. My intention was not to enter into a debate but merely prevent others from being misguided. I hope that I have done so.

Your views are your own and you alone are accountable for them. They are not the views of Ahlus Sunnah wa Al-Jama'ah and I doubt they are even the views of most Shi'a.

I do not think I continue on with this debate without delving into subjects that I am uncomfortable and unqualified to speak about, so I have to leave it at this. Up until now I feel I have been able to accurately respond to your posts with common knowledge, but you're delving into issues that are not appropriate for laymen to discuss.

I'm sorry, ansariag. This was certainly an interesting discussion and I hope perhaps you will find a more informed brother or sister to continue with .

[Kennypor]

You know nothing of pantheism yet you say you debated me as if I came here to debate. No my views are not those of the Sunni...I am sorry if you could not understand what I was explaining...maybe your mind is clouded or trapped and your understanding is via sheikhs like me to. You argue over etymology which you do not understand. And you steady use a recent definition to describe something ancient yet you contradict yourself by saying you are not that knowledgeable of it...well I am very knowledgeable of the terms, the classifications, sub-classes etc. after sitting in countless Philo-Ethics courses...how many have you sat in, passed and understood?

Tell me, when was the term 'pantheism' first coined and where and who coined it...I bet you don't even know and I also be this, soon as you find out you will know how recent it is and 'why' the definition is structured the way that it is. You know..the meanings of words are said to change over time....guess it's evolution or recycling. And yeah, we were created from the heavens b.k.a. stars, super novas, astroids, etc. This doesn't mean that Allah didn't create us...it just means that he created us via a process. Salaam Alaykom bro

[Suvaxal]

What is it that makes pantheism shirk? Is it wrong to view nature as being sacred? If this is wrong, then there is absolutely no need for us to say blessing over our food or to pronounce blessings on others.

I feel so sorry for you and I say it with genuine sorrow and concern.So as a (shia) Muslim you have been spending a long time and money on studying philosophy (existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind et al) from disbelievers, and now you arrive at a point where you can comfortably write the above quoted sentence, and not realize how far away from Islam your journey has taken you?

Among His Signs are the Night and the Day, and the Sun and the Moon. Do not prostrate to the sun and the moon, but prostrate to Allah, Who created them, if it is Him ye wish to serve (Quran 41.037)

Thus did We show Abraham the kingdom of the heavens and the earth that he be one of those who have Faith and certainty. When the night covered him over with darkness he saw a star. He said: "This is my lord." But when it set, he said: "I like not that those who set." When he saw the moon rising up he said: "This is my lord." but when it set he said: "Unless my Lord guides me, I shall surely be among the erring people." When he saw the sun rising up he said: "This is my lord, This is greater." But when it set, he said: "O my people! I am indeed free from all that you join as partners in worship with Allah. Verily, I have turned my face towards Him Who has created the heavens and the earth Hanifan (Islamic Monotheism, i.e. worshipping none but Allah Alone) and I am not of the Al Mushrikeen (those who worship others besides Allah)." (Quran 6:75)

[Kennypor]

I feel so sorry for you and I say it with genuine sorrow and concern.So as a (shia) Muslim you have been spending a long time and money on studying philosophy (existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind et al) from disbelievers, and now you arrive at a point where you can comfortably write the above quoted sentence, and not realize how far away from Islam your journey has taken you?

Among His Signs are the Night and the Day, and the Sun and the Moon. Do not prostrate to the sun and the moon, but prostrate to Allah, Who created them, if it is Him ye wish to serve (Quran 41.037)

Thus did We show Abraham the kingdom of the heavens and the earth that he be one of those who have Faith and certainty. When the night covered him over with darkness he saw a star. He said: "This is my lord." But when it set, he said: "I like not that those who set." When he saw the moon rising up he said: "This is my lord." but when it set he said: "Unless my Lord guides me, I shall surely be among the erring people." When he saw the sun rising up he said: "This is my lord, This is greater." But when it set, he said: "O my people! I am indeed free from all that you join as partners in worship with Allah. Verily, I have turned my face towards Him Who has created the heavens and the earth Hanifan (Islamic Monotheism, i.e. worshipping none but Allah Alone) and I am not of the Al Mushrikeen (those who worship others besides Allah)." (Quran 6:75)

Spending money on what? A college education? What I simply expressed is that what is called pantheism is an age old idea...possibly as old as humanity itself...

If you respect nature, you are a pantheist. If you worship nature you are an idol worshipper. Read all of my post and understand them well before commenting. islam doesn't just contain elements of pantheism, panentheism, monism, monotheism, theism, etc...it contains much more though you may not see it as such. Many love to say things without knowing the issue well...not saying this applies to you but if the shoe fits...you know the rest. Salaams.

[GAGNAPPEAPH]

First thing's first, get a clearer understanding of 'what' pantheism is. It is only recently that pantheism is pushing to become a religion unto itself...in the ancient days it has always existed as a principle of being but usually associated with the worship of idols or natural phenomenon.

Second thing's second, I am proud to revere (not to be confused with worship) my natural environment...I reckon this is the reason we have parks, zoos, hike, take bike rides through wooded areas, go scuba diving (I gotta try that one) etc. We as humans have a natural attachment and attraction to nature but we have taught ourselves over time to have dominion over it.....hence the condition of the world...we are the cause of this destruction.

I think we have progressed over the centuries in terms of spirituality..maybe too much. Many over the centuries have labeled nature as 'Divine'. And depending on one's understanding, to say nature is 'Divine' is shirk. Divine is a term reserved only for Allah. I think it's best to label nature as 'sacred' meaning deserving deep admiration and respect.

Hence I take care of my earth....GO GREEN EVERYBODY YEAH!

So obviously, when the person asks the original question, they are referring, unless they specifically mention otherwise, to the general understanding of pantheism today, among the people and in the dictionaries and encyclopedias. If there is some historical meaning that is different, than how is that relevant, and why would you start a debate in which clearly the basic definitions of the different parties don't match?

To discuss this issue, you should have started a new thread entitled, "Historically Pantheism was not mutually exclusive with Islam" and then whoever was interested could discuss that topic, with an understanding of the baseline upon which discussion is taking place.

[viagsjicguara]

Pantheism is the belief that everything which exists is literally a part of God. That there is no creation, only the Creator. There is no demarcation between creation and Creator.

This is clearly NOT what is described on almost every page of the Qur'an.

People develop confusion sometimes because Islam, unlike Judeo-Christian or Western Monotheist tradition, gets into a sort of "contest" of just how powerful Allah is. Allah is All-Powerful. When Muslims explore this and meditate on it, and find evidence for the Will of Allah behind every cause and effect, it starts to sound like "pantheism" to the uneducated ear. But there is still and always is, and always will be, a clearly defined demarcation between creation and Creator. The entire book talks about creation and Creator and how the signs for the Creator are in the creation, and to observe creation!

When one observes actual pantheistic faiths, like some forms of Hinduism (which comes in a few flavors, the oldest of which might be pantheism), they don't have the same emphasis at all. In fact, in my discussions with pantheistic Hindus, they view reality or existence as "the Supreme Comedy". Literally! If you Google it, you will find results from Hindus posting on various science forums about how existence is one big joke that most people do not seem to get. That we are like fleeting thoughts in the mind of "god".

This striking contrast puts Islam and pantheism firmly at opposites. Islam is clearly a monotheist tradition. As I said, it is reflected in the very contents of the Qur'an. There is no comparison in our view of reality.

What there is comparison in is our view of God. I would almost consider this a point of pride for Muslims that we believe our Tawheed, our definition of God, of Allah, His nature is the most powerful conception of God in all ideologies. On a superficial level one might make the mistake of thinking pantheism's view of "god" is more powerful (what could be more powerful than everything being "god"?), but when you ponder on it you will realize that integrating creation into Creator limits God. It detracts, not adds! It means this theoretical pantheist "deity" isn't even fully omniscient all the time if it is living in its own "fantasies". That he Allah has to be perfect, omniscient, omnipotent. This can only occur through Islamic theology, our unique doctrine of monotheism (which is not like the deist-style monotheism of the Judeo-Christian tradition which is almost a part of the Greek Platonist or Neoplatonist tradition).

For example,

When pantheism is considered as an alternative to theism there is a denial of theistic claims. For example, theism is the belief in a “personal” God that transcends (is separate from) the world. Pantheists deny the existence of a personal God. They deny the existence of a “minded” Being that has intentional states and associated capacities such as the ability to make decisions

Pantheism undercuts a fundamental doctrine of Islamic monotheism which is Allah's Will and omniscience.

Some even compare pantheism to atheism in that sense because the idea of "god" no longer seems to even Self-identify as God! (In more mathematical terms, if everything is "god" then if you divide by "god", you can remove "him" entirely from the equation)

What the poster above is doing is confusing Monism with Pantheism.

Monism is the idea that things are "One" but there is not necessarily "Unity". Islamic monotheism has drawn attempts at comparison to monist philosophies. The issue here is that monism is so vague and ambiguous it could literally mean anything. There are versions of monism which could describe pantheism, atheism, dualism, deism, even monotheism! Monism doesn't even have to apply to theology, it is a philosophy. Many philosophies, including those popular in Western circles where there is absolutely no pantheist tradition and even their notions of theism are altogether rejected or are more akin to deism, can be reduced to monist ideas. It might be possible to modify the term monism until you can come up with a functional definition which seems to describe Islamic monotheism, but that's just pointless. Why perform philosophical acrobatics to put Islamic monotheism in terms of monism when it already has its own terms? Just an exercise in sophistry.

[Nikkkola]

@ansar. Do you believe that big bang really happened? According to big bang theory ( refer to "A brief history of time" by Stephen Hawkings),right after the big bang,the physical space,matter and time were created.The creator has to be free of matter,time and space to be able to create the universe (As an engineer who makes a robot has to be deprived to silicone chip intelligence).So how come one still stick to your version of pantheism in which the circular arguments that of yours are centered on the theory of "Qadeem mada" ie matter is old. Better to learn some science ( if you dont want to learn deen) and then make such claims.
Ps. Before getting into such discussions in which a single wrong word can take a person out of Islam,u better study the principal of uncertainty,frames of human perception and limitations of human mind.The question of "absolute reality" can't be addressed like this.

[Suvaxal]

Ansar, given your pantheistic background "Pantheism is the view that the Universe (Nature) and God are identical. Pantheists thus do not believe in a personal, anthropomorphic or creator god." wikipedia

can you please explain these verses from the Qur'an? Thank you.

Among His Signs are the Night and the Day, and the Sun and the Moon. Do not prostrate to the sun and the moon, but prostrate to Allah, Who created them, if it is Him ye wish to serve (Quran 41.037)

Thus did We show Abraham the kingdom of the heavens and the earth that he be one of those who have Faith and certainty. When the night covered him over with darkness he saw a star. He said: "This is my lord." But when it set, he said: "I like not that those who set." When he saw the moon rising up he said: "This is my lord." but when it set he said: "Unless my Lord guides me, I shall surely be among the erring people." When he saw the sun rising up he said: "This is my lord, This is greater." But when it set, he said: "O my people! I am indeed free from all that you join as partners in worship with Allah. Verily, I have turned my face towards Him Who has created the heavens and the earth Hanifan (Islamic Monotheism, i.e. worshipping none but Allah Alone) and I am not of the Al Mushrikeen (those who worship others besides Allah)." (Quran 6:75)

[Kennypor]

So obviously, when the person asks the original question, they are referring, unless they specifically mention otherwise, to the general understanding of pantheism today, among the people and in the dictionaries and encyclopedias. If there is some historical meaning that is different, than how is that relevant, and why would you start a debate in which clearly the basic definitions of the different parties don't match?

To discuss this issue, you should have started a new thread entitled, "Historically Pantheism was not mutually exclusive with Islam" and then whoever was interested could discuss that topic, with an understanding of the baseline upon which discussion is taking place.

Yes, I agree. I just happen to have read the original post and responded. Does anyone here have any in-depth knowledge on the traditional Arab religion?

[Joircarm]

The core belief of Pantheism is that God and Creation are not seperate (a'udhu billah). It's in the etymology of the word. This belief has no place in Islam and is completely contrary to Monotheism.

Reverance for nature has nothing to do with being a Pantheist, they're not mutually exclusive subjects. Nor is it a requirement of Pantheism that you worship or revere nature; merely that you believe creation is indistinguishable from God (a'udhu billah).

I personally respect the environment and creation of Allah because it's something a Muslim is supposed to do. Not because I believe Nature has any inherent value or importance.

In October 1993, Prince Charles addressed a Muslim university of which he is Patron:

"At the heart of Islam is its preservation of an integral view of the Universe. Islam - like Buddhism and Hinduism - refuses to separate man and nature, religion and science, mind and matter, and has preserved a metaphysical and unified view of ourselves and the world around us".

In June 2010, Prince Charles addressed his Patron Muslim university (The Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies):

"My understanding of Islam is that it warns that to deny the reality of our inner being leads to inner darkness which can quickly extend outwards into the world of Nature. If we ignore the calling of the soul, then we destroy Nature. To understand this, we have to remember that we are Nature... we reflect the universal patterns of Nature. From what I know of the Qu'ran, again and again it describes the natural world as the handiwork of a unitary benevolent power. It very explicitly describes Nature as possessing an 'intelligibility' and that there is no separation between the natural world and God. It offers a completely integrated view of the Universe where religion and science, mind and matter are all part of one living conscious whole. We are, therefore, finite beings contained by an infinitude, and each of us is a microcosm of the whole. This suggests to me that Nature is a knowing partner, never a mindless slave... Islam is very clear... the important principle we must keep in mind is that there are limits to the abundance of Nature... Muslims are commanded not to transgress them... the wisdom and learning offered by a sacred tradition like Islam matters... The Islamic world is the custodian of one of the greatest treasuries of accumulated wisdom and spiritual knowledge available to humanity. It is both Islam's noble heritage and a priceless gift to the rest of the world. And yet, so often, that wisdom is now obscured by the dominant drive towards Western materialism... Its wisdom is discovered through practice and in action... the importance of conservation is much easier if it is transmitted by religious leaders whose reference is Qur'anic teaching... 'the best of all Mosques is Nature herself'".

Is this true?

One of the greatest Islamic scholar's of the past, Bediuzzaman Said Nursi exposites this matter:

"Isa will return to earth in bodily form in the End Times and will contend and repudiate anti-religious ideologies that represent materialist and naturalist philosophy".

[blogwado]

so apparently shirk isnt a big deal to some people.

Allah says: "Surely Allah will not forgive the association of partners (shirk) with Him, but He forgives (sins) less then that to whomever He wishes" (Surah An-Nisa 4:48)

so some people need to start getting their priorities in line with what Allah has prioritised for us inshAllah.

Pantheism is not deep, its not spiritual, its clear cut SHIRK BILLAH and so its from the most detested things to Allah

[blogwado]

Spending money on what? A college education? What I simply expressed is that what is called pantheism is an age old idea...possibly as old as humanity itself...

so Adam alayhi salaam believed in pantheism?

[ovenco]

If you don't know what pantheism is here is a link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism

Islam is 100% the opposite of pantheism.

I once read a book that mistranslated something by Imam Ashraf Ali Thanwi (ra) from Wujoodi to pantheistic, but the Deobandi understanding of wadhat al wujood is far from pantheism.

Some pseudo-Sufis are like pantheists, but no real Muslim is a pantheist.

__-__________________________________________________ __________

SURAH IKHLAS IN THREE TRANSLATIONS OF MEANINGS

VERSE 1.

Sahih International
Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One,

Muhsin Khan
Say (O Muhammad (Peace be upon him)): "He is Allah, (the) One.

Pickthall
Say: He is Allah, the One!

VERSE 2

Sahih International
Allah , the Eternal Refuge.

Muhsin Khan
"Allah-us-Samad (The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks).

Pickthall
Allah, the eternally Besought of all!

VERSE THREE

Sahih International
He neither begets nor is born,

Muhsin Khan
"He begets not, nor was He begotten;

Pickthall
He begetteth not nor was begotten.

VERSE FOUR

Sahih International
Nor is there to Him any equivalent."

Muhsin Khan
"And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him."

Pickthall
And there is none comparable unto Him.

http://quran.com/112

[Cucoulkrory]

Pantheism is the view that the Universe (or Nature) and God (or divinity) are identical.

Muslims hold the view that Allah is completely separate in His Essence to anything in "Nature".

This does not mean Allah is not closer to our jugular veins - and is not Al Raqib (The Watchful)

but Allah is Al- Aliy (The Sublime) so by definition He is UNLIKE anything in Creation.

However, we should support the environmental drive suggested by some replies.

Islam is a religion to give formal rights to trees and rivers and farmland!

[Jesslovers]

Allah is Al Haq (meaning The Real and the Truth), which means everything else is false and untrue, or illusion. So is the creation Allah ? No. Only Allah is the True Existent all other existent like human beings are almost non existent in comparison, only human illusions (created by Allah :taala) make the human being think his own existence is real and 'bigger' than anything else. Pan-theism...meaning everything is God is not Islam, Islam declares that everything is false except Allah which is tawheed...La ilaha Ilallah, no God only Allah ;taala:.

[baxodrom]

Is pantheism and the concept of Wahdat-al-Wujood the same thing?

[sitescools]

Absolutely not. God is not the Universe and the Universe is not God.
This is shirk.


God > Universe.