[mirzaterak]

Assalamu Alaikum,

I was speaking to a Mufti Saheb today and he clarified an important point. It has to do with the hadith "Every child is born upon Fitrah"

In the video Shaykh Riyadh explains that "fitra" doesn't mean Islam, rather it means that "the natural state of every human being is one of clarity, purity; of being in a pristine form; of being unpolluted, unadulterated by external factors. And that natural state is conducive to a person embracing Islam"

And this is from Imam Abu Hanifa's Al-Fiqh Al-Akbar (I think this is the book he quoted, please correct me if I have mentioned the wrong book)

http://www.halaltube.com/abu-yusuf-r...s-of-the-quran


The reasoning that the Mufti Saheb gave:
The use of word "revert" would mean that the child was forced by Allah to be born as Muslim, but that is not true. Allah has created all humans as having free will to choose their religion.

Just thought that this was an important point and highly misunderstood by us. So sharing it here.

[levitratestimon]

Very interesting...

[DeronBoltonRen]

I've heard that we're called "reverts" because when Allah created everyone's Ruh they were asked "Who is your Lord?" and they all answered "Allah". I don't know if that is correct, though.

[SteantyjetMaw]

Interesting.

http://spa.qibla.com/issue_view.asp?...=2503&CATE=115

[Les Allen]

Assalamu Alaikum,

I was speaking to a Mufti Saheb today and he clarified an important point. It has to do with the hadith "Every child is born upon Fitrah"

In the video Shaykh Riyadh explains that "fitra" doesn't mean Islam, rather it means that "the natural state of every human being is one of clarity, purity; of being in a pristine form; of being unpolluted, unadulterated by external factors. And that natural state is conducive to a person embracing Islam"

And this is from Imam Abu Hanifa's Al-Fiqh Al-Akbar (I think this is the book he quoted, please correct me if I have mentioned the wrong book)

http://www.halaltube.com/abu-yusuf-r...s-of-the-quran


The reasoning that the Mufti Saheb gave:
The use of word "revert" would mean that the child was forced by Allah to be born as Muslim, but that is not true. Allah has created all humans as having free will to choose their religion.

Just thought that this was an important point and highly misunderstood by us. So sharing it here.

One point to be noted is that the opinion of the majority of the Salaf was that every child was born Muslim and that fitrah meant Islam. There are reasons to prefer the second opinion over the first but that opinion cannot be derided or considered wrong.

[Gymngatagaica]

السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

I was speaking to a Mufti Saheb today and he clarified an important point.

Just out of curiosity, which Mufti Saheb is this?

[soipguibbom]

I posted a similar thread a long while back. While I understand why people use the term "revert", it just sounds like a corny gimmick to me.

[Hankie]

One point to be noted is that the opinion of the majority of the Salaf was that every child was born Muslim and that fitrah meant Islam. There are reasons to prefer the second opinion over the first but that opinion cannot be derided or considered wrong.

Dr. Abu Tamim,

Do you have any reference for this?

[vforvandetta]

The point was brought out earlier too and personally I found the explanation linked in the OP quite reasonable.

[nintenda]

SubhanAllah, I was thinking about asking some questions regarding the very same video in the OP. I watched it a while back, but if i I can remember correctly, I think Mufti Saheb explains the reasoning behind his explanation as later in the same hadith the sahaba ask about what if the child dies before adulthood, whereupon the Prophet salAllahu alayh wassallam replies that Allah knows best what the child wouldve grown up to become (ie Muslim, Jew, Christian etc.) - so the mufti says if the child is automatically Muslim then there would be no sense in the sahabas questioning..

However my question was, doesn't a child who dies before reaching adulthood enter Jannah anyways and is not held accountable to what he may have become ultimately?

[Fsfkkkjz]

Question...which of these names did the Sahaba use revert or convert?

Answer...neither - they just used Muslim and did not distinguish between those who chose Islam and those who were brought up Muslim.

so why do we distinguish in this way - calling even someone who has been Muslim 40 years a convert or revert?

when we do aren't we in fact involved in an intellectual bidah (good or bad)

does anyone ever talk about Hadhrat Abu Bakr (raa) the Muslim convert?

does anyone ever talk about Hadhrat Umar (raa) the Muslim revert?

they would not think to in a million years...

so why do we make such a definition for those who become Muslim in the modern era when it was not done in the time of the Holy Prophet (saws)?

I think the reason that people only make so much issue of whether someone was brought up in a Muslim family (or one that just calls itself Muslim) or has become a Muslim nowadays is because, although they would never admit it, they have the mindset of the Jews who have made their religion something to do with blood instead of faith.

This same mindset keeps them from dawa amongst the non-Muslims, but they should not forget the story that once Allah (SWT) sent Angels to a city to destroy it because of its sinful people, they returned to Him and told him there was one devout believing man there who prayed and worshiped Allah, should they still destroy the city? (already knowing the answer) Allah asked them if the pious man was trying to reform the people - the Angels answered that he was not - so Allah said 'kill him first'.

[Fsfkkkjz]

The issue of everyone being born a Muslim has been discussed on Sunniforum before...

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...n-as-a-Muslim&

that thread ended up...


assalamu alaikum

the verse you are referring to is the oath Allah took from all the souls that they should believe in him alone i.e tawheed and all of humanity took this oath not just the Muslims, so unfortunately its doesn't support the idea of being born a Muslim. i think people have exaggerated what the word fitrah means, as if muslims are the only ummah to have ever lived on the face of this earth.

__________________________________________________ _______________________

Wa alaykum as-salam,

I believe it was Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah [ra] who said that Islam has a general meaning and a specific meaning. The general meaning of Islam is whoever submits to Allah [swt], and in this sense, all of the prophets--starting from Prophet Adam [as]--were all Muslims, in the general sense of the word. As for the specific meaning, then this is referring to the Ummat of Prophet Muhammad [s].

So could it not be said that every one is born Muslim in the general sense of the word, but not the specific sense? Wallahu Aalim.

__________________________________________________ ________________________

rami.

Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

The general meaning of Islam is whoever submits to Allah [swt]

yes this is true but is a muslim any person who submits to allah alone [plenty of non Muslims fit into this category] or the person who submits to Allah and his prophet. So could it not be said that every one is born Muslim in the general sense of the word no since the word muslim is specific to this ummah and taking it in its general sence would mean many non Muslims today are muslims. i know that all sounds confused but you have to look at what it specifically means to submit your will to Allah i.e its particulars. I dont think sh. Ibn taymiyah said all the prophets where muslims [you will have to provide a reference before i believe that].

hmmm sometimes i dont like the English language, i know how you can think this must be the case but in the Arabic this cant stand [with my limited understanding that is] most words in Arabic don't have any equivalent in the English language so in fact what you are doing is translating an idea rather than a single word. there is no equivalent for Islam, or fitrah as it is understood by muslims, you can translate the literal word but the connotations, ideas, imagery, history an entire field of knowledge that this word conjures up in the mind of the individual who understands it in its native tongue is lost and what you are left with is some basic semblance in the English language mixed in with what ever connotations history, base assumptions the word in English carries with it so you can never understand it fully untill you immerse your self in arabic culture and not just simply learn the language.

I think it was muhhamad asad who spent a number years with the Bedouins of iraq so he could understand pure Arabic and not as it has been corrupted by westernised arabs....Allahu allam

__________________________________________________ __________________

umar_italy

Yes.. there's also a verse in the qur'an. in which Allah SWT questions you before you are even born whether you believe, and we say yes. therefore, we're all born as muslims, and considered reverts rather than converts.


Sister so looking that video posted by brother Ali al-Hanafi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0trElMCi4o)

__________________________________________________ __________________

JayshAllah

Wa alaykum as-salam,

I have heard from a reliable student of knowledge that what this Shaykh is talking about is merely the fiqhi rulings of being a Muslim.

Like I said, they are Muslim in the general sense of the word, but not in the specific sense.

Even though I think the video was created to prevent misunderstanding,

I also think it might lead to even more misunderstanding.

Wallahu Aalim.



that makes a lot of sense to me.

[Hankie]

Question...which of these names did the Sahaba use revert or convert?

Answer...neither - they just used Muslim and did not distinguish between those who chose Islam and those who were brought up Muslim.

so why do we distinguish in this way - calling even someone who has been Muslim 40 years a convert or revert?

when we do aren't we in fact involved in an intellectual bidah (good or bad)

does anyone ever talk about Hadhrat Abu Bakr (raa) the Muslim convert?

does anyone ever talk about Hadhrat Umar (raa) the Muslim revert?

they would not think to in a million years...

so why do we make such a definition for those who become Muslim in the modern era when it was not done in the time of the Holy Prophet (saws)?

I think the reason that people only make so much issue of whether someone was brought up in a Muslim family (or one that just calls itself Muslim) or has become a Muslim nowadays is because, although they would never admit it, they have the mindset of the Jews who have made their religion something to do with blood instead of faith.

This same mindset keeps them from dawa amongst the non-Muslims

Allahu akbar, finally!

!

But for the sake of objectivity it must be said that "converts" themselves are often the first culprits of this behaviour as they don't lose a single occasion of going around saying "oh, I'm a convert, I'm a revert, I'm this, I'm that", waiting for the bursting of "oh masha'Allah you are so lucky and special and intelligent and.... etc. etc.".

And nafs goes up and up and up...

[vforvandetta]

So has the matter been clarified for the second time?
Sunni Forum being an outlet of authentic Islamic teachings should have a comprehensive collection of articles, even if these are borrowed from other sources so that we can refer any person making an inquiry. The question being discussed in the present thread is one suitable topic for an article.

And the observation made by Dr Abdul makes lot of sense.

[mirzaterak]

السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته



Just out of curiosity, which Mufti Saheb is this?

He is Mufti in UK, not famous and he doesn't post his talks on youtube or anything either.

[Les Allen]

Dr. Abu Tamim,

Do you have any reference for this?

bro 'Umar.
There is a nice and detailed discussion on this in Mufti Shafi's Ma'arif al-Qur'an. You can find the reference from the index by searching for "fitrah".

[sarasmid]

bro 'Umar.
There is a nice and detailed discussion on this in Mufti Shafi's Ma'arif al-Qur'an. You can find the reference from the index by searching for "fitrah".

It's in Surah Room, aayah 30 in ma'aariful Qur'an.

[Hankie]

bro 'Umar.
There is a nice and detailed discussion on this in Mufti Shafi's Ma'arif al-Qur'an. You can find the reference from the index by searching for "fitrah".

It's in Surah Room, aayah 30 in ma'aariful Qur'an.

, I'm going to take a look!