[adultcheee]

visiting Jewish guy you may find this website interesting http://www.jews-for-allah.org although the brother who runs that website is a little full on due to his having become a Muslim through Hamas. There are some interesting articles on there though.

[sensation]

Most Zionists and pro-Zionists consider the JDL to be a bunch of racist thugs, myself included. Remember he was jailed many times by both Israel and the United States for criminal acts of incitement and violence.

As for international volunteers for the Mossad, I can't really speak for them - but every country uses "agents" in intelligence work. Intelligence agencies pay people to give them information, and Israel is no different. It could be people giving them background cultural information (harmless) or providing operational details of military work (espionnage), which is obviously a crime. We in the United States jailed such an agent from Israel, a Jonathan Pollard, who is currently serving a life sentence. It's a dirty business, but I assure you *every* country does this.

Yes, there were a few Jewish converts to Islam. I won't become one, since I tend towards the agnostic/atheist side of things. I consider myself a cultural Jew, but I'm not really what you would call religious or spiritual. Always interested in other cultures and religions, though! I love seeing how other people think and feel and behave.

I will check out the site. There's a lot of fear and misunderstanding among Jews about Islam. I was trying to set them straight about a few fears and found this site so I could do some research.

I guess that depends on whether you are a member of the Jewish Defense League or an international Mossad volunteer (sayanim) or not?

http://www.jdl.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Defense_League
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RUjar55CvE



I think they were perhaps talking about this type of thing.

Al-Husayn ibn Sailam was a Jewish rabbi in Yathrib who was widely respected and honoured by the people of the city even by those who were not Jewish. He was known for his piety and goodness, his upright conduct and his truthfulness.
Al-Husayn lived a peaceful and gentle life but he was serious, purposeful and organized in the way he spent his time. For a fixed period each day, he would worship, teach and preach in the temple.
Then he would spend some time in his orchard, looking after date palms, pruning and pollinating. Thereafter, to increase his understanding and knowledge of his religion, he would devote himself to the study of the Torah..

In this study, it is said he was particularly struck by some verses of the Torah which dealt with the coming of a Prophet who would complete the message of previous Prophets. Al-Husayn therefore took an immediate and keen interest when he heard reports of the appearance of a Prophet in Makkah.

He said: "When I heard of the appearance of the Messenger of God, peace be on him, I began to make enquiries about his name, his genealogy, his characteristics, his time and place and I began to compare this information with what is contained m our books. From these enquiries, I became convinced about the authenticity of his prophethood and I affirmed the truth of his mission. However, I concealed my conclusions from the Jews. I held my tongue...

Then came the day when the Prophet, peace be on him, left Makkah and headed for Yathrib. When he reached Yathrib and stopped at Quba, a man came rushing into the city, calling out to people and announcing the arrival of the Prophet. At that moment, I was at the top of a palm tree doing some work.
My aunt, Khalidah bint al-Harith, was sitting under the tree. On hearing the news, I shouted:

'Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar! (God is Great! God is Great!' When my aunt heard my takbir, she remonstrated with me: 'May God frustrate you...By God, if you had heard that Moses was coming you would not have been more enthusiastic.' 'Auntie, he is really, by God, the 'brother' of Moses and follows his religion. He was sent with the same mission as Moses.' She was silent for a while and then said: 'Is he the Prophet about whom you spoke to us who would be sent to confirm the truth preached by previous (Prophets) and complete the message of his Lord?' 'Yes,' I replied.

Without any delay or hesitation, I went out to meet the Prophet. I saw crowds of people at his door. I moved about in the crowds until I reached close to him. The first words I heard him say were:
'O people! Spread peace...Share food...Pray during the night while people (normally) sleep... and you will enter Paradise in peace...' I looked at him closely. I scrutinized him and was convinced that his face was not that of an imposter. I went closer to him and made the declaration of faith that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah. The Prophet turned to me and asked: 'What is your name?' 'Al-Husayn ibn Sailam,' I replied.
'Instead, it is (now) Abdullah ibn Sallam,' he said (giving me a new name). 'Yes,' I agreed. 'Abdullah ibn Sailam (it shall be). By Him who has sent you with the Truth, I do not wish to have another name after this day.'


Source: http://www.streetdawah.com/books/Com...%20Prophet.pdf

[hrotedk]

Let Allah SWT guide you to islam. Ameen, ameen thumma ameen

[sensation]

I don't know if it was genocide or not, but Young Turks systematically perpetrated ethnic cleansing of Armenians. And no, there was no countervailing cleansing of Turks, that's simply not true. My grandfather was at the wrong end of the gun in 1917, and fortunately escaped (through the kindness of some nicer Turks). In no way should the current Turkish regime be blamed (though they've certainly committed crimes to suppress what happened), but it's not particularly healthful or helpful to participate in denial. In fact, Hitler drew much inspiration from the Armenian catastrophe when planning the final solution.

We in America perpetrated a genocide against our indigenous populations. Unfortunately, it's far more common than people will admit.

Yes Maimondes was on the run. This was the time of political upheavel in Andulucia which eventually resulted in loss of control into smaller shaikhdom. Any opposing voice be it muslim or non muslim made little difference. There was section that went to Maghrib. The contingency going to the east was small compare to Ottoman territory. As far as I remember Ezypt was at the time also had shairah law. The khilafat became symbolic anyway. The Shariah law applied was not.

Turks are right in voicing their oppositon to being called genocide at then end of the ottomon rule. No doubt violation occur. The same thing happen to the turks. Also there has to be documented evidance to be called genocide. Death resulting from war and deseases can't be called genocide. Genocide implies mass murder like the one in Libya by the italian or the eugenic programs by the Dutch in Namiba which finally manifested in germany's holocaust.

Allahualam

[Ephejvll]

VisitingJewishGuy,

Even though you're more of a cultural Jew, I think I'm gonna have to ask this.

Jews are not allowed to have a state until the coming of the messiah. Current zionists movement "claim" to prepare a state for the coming of messiah (profiteering aside). If the state was supposed to be setup *after* the coming of the messiah, then wouldn't the current state of israel not be considered as the real state for Jews?

Jews were expelled from the area twice before historically. Some of the zionist proponents are actually atheist groups who made some big profits from the projects in israel. Neo conservative Christians on the other hand usher Jews to go back to the area as they believe the destruction of Jews would hasten the coming back of Jesus (Prophet Isa ) - though they would deny any responsibilities should anything happen. Well, land grabbing at gun points definitely would create bad bloods among the Muslims and the migrated Jews to the areas, and cycles of violence would create bigger flames each time.

Looking back at the historical event that happened during the two times expulsions, the Jews at the time didn't concentrate on their religion. Indeed when Khalifah Umar went to Jerusalem, the site for Temple Mount was a dump site.

Prophet Muhamad told us all that there'll be a war between Muslims and Jews in the area in the future. Looking at the trend, it's more or less like the first and second time Jews were expelled from the area, as if more and more Jews are forgetting their religion? So more or less it would be like a war between Muslims (who are steadfast in our religion ) and Jews (who are basically no longer practice their religion)?

What's your opinion on this?

Allah Knows Best.

[sensation]

Happy to answer. In my opinion, there is no *religious* reason for any state - states earn legitimacy from justice, and a mandate from the people whom they serve - and from the protection of basic human rights.

Remember Zionism was essentially a secular movement, started by another cultural Jew - Theodor Herzl, who didn't really speak Yiddish or Hebrew himself, he spoke German and Hungarian. To Herzl, and many others, the reason for a Jewish state was one of self-defense. After pogroms and growing anti-semitism in Europe, he sought a place where Jews could live together and protect each other and themselves.

Religious Zionists don't consider the modern state of Israel to be quite the same as the state that would exist when Moshiach comes. That will come when it comes. In the meantime, they must build towards it... so they think. Again, I'm not really religious, so I can't speak for them.

I'm not sure you understand what the neo-conservative movement is. So-called Christian Zionists are not neo-conservatives.

No, I don't approve of land-grabs at gun-point. Property rights are property rights - whoever owns the land is the owner, Jew or Gentile. People who are deprived of their land, in my country (USA) must be given recompense and/or due process of law. So it should be the case in Israel. I don't live there, nor do I participate in their judiciary, but I happen to believe they are far better at protecting property rights than any regional state and most states in the West. They are in a tough situation when so many want them dead - so they make security decisions I wish they didn't make and I also wish they didn't have to make them.

As for prophesied war between Jews and Muslims - remember, I'm not religious in the least. I consider religious texts to be metaphors, tales of wisdom, and sometimes outright fiction. I have Muslim friends and wouldn't touch a hair on their heads. Neither would they mine.

VisitingJewishGuy,

Even though you're more of a cultural Jew, I think I'm gonna have to ask this.

Jews are not allowed to have a state until the coming of the messiah. Current zionists movement "claim" to prepare a state for the coming of messiah (profiteering aside). If the state was supposed to be setup *after* the coming of the messiah, then wouldn't the current state of israel not be considered as the real state for Jews?

Jews were expelled from the area twice before historically. Some of the zionist proponents are actually atheist groups who made some big profits from the projects in israel. Neo conservative Christians on the other hand usher Jews to go back to the area as they believe the destruction of Jews would hasten the coming back of Jesus (Prophet Isa ) - though they would deny any responsibilities should anything happen. Well, land grabbing at gun points definitely would create bad bloods among the Muslims and the migrated Jews to the areas, and cycles of violence would create bigger flames each time.

Looking back at the historical event that happened during the two times expulsions, the Jews at the time didn't concentrate on their religion. Indeed when Khalifah Umar went to Jerusalem, the site for Temple Mount was a dump site.

Prophet Muhamad told us all that there'll be a war between Muslims and Jews in the area in the future. Looking at the trend, it's more or less like the first and second time Jews were expelled from the area, as if more and more Jews are forgetting their religion? So more or less it would be like a war between Muslims (who are steadfast in our religion ) and Jews (who are basically no longer practice their religion)?

What's your opinion on this?

Allah Knows Best.

[Ephejvll]

Thanks for the reply.

I have Muslim friends and wouldn't touch a hair on their heads. Neither would they mine.

It's forbidden upon any Muslim to harm anyone who has a pact with Muslims, as mentioned by the hadith of the Prophet ;

"Whoever parts from obedience, and splits away from the Jama’ah and dies, then he has died a death of Jahiliyyah. Whoever rebels against my Ummah, killing good and evil people alike, and does not try to avoid killing the believers, and does not pay attention to those who are under a covenant, then he is not of me. Whoever fights for a cause that is not clear, advocating tribalism getting angry for the sake of tribalism, and he is killed, then he has died a death of Jahiliyyah. [Sunan Nasai: Kitab Tahreemu ad-Dam]"

Allah Knows Best.

[sensation]

This isn't a pact. This is just good character. And one of them makes good joojeh kebabs. Can't kill him. He's kind of a jerk, but the chicken saves him.

[Ephejvll]

This isn't a pact. This is just good character. And one of them makes good joojeh kebabs. Can't kill him. He's kind of a jerk, but the chicken saves him.

lol.
I might be wrong but I think a pact in the above hadith is not restricted to a formal treaty or agreement in the modern days where you're required to have some signatures and such. Maybe more knowledgeable brothers can help to clarify it,

But either way, a Muslim should love another human being just like s/he would want other human beings to love and treat her/him right. Golden rule principle.

Allahualam.

[Kubasarika]

None is denying war crime here. The armaniana that were not targeted are the intelectual, doctors, bread makers etc. Anyone who are deemed to serve function in the society!! This is documented and is found in archive. The plan was to expell the armenaian from Turkish territory!
As one would expact in doing so deseases and violation of crime occured. No turks denies this to this day!
Genocide implies mass killing program of all! This is not the case! I think confusion about claim is about defination of the word.
Those who try to cry genocide bases their view with their own experience.
Many of the leading Ottomon elite were also put to death and assasinated by the Ataturk. The list of his murder list includes Scholars of Islam, intelectual!!
Hitlar drawing inspiration statement is somewhat stretching the truth. The entire premisis of arian race is a result of Eugenic progpram under King Leopole (theory of survivial of the fittest). This resulted in mass murder of many african tribes and also 30s concentration camp in Libya.
The problem is in the west to admit something wrong is like admiting their guilt, putting western claim of civilisation into disrepute. Same is the case with French atrocities in their former occupied territory.
The call for genocide by the French and Zionist has more to do with politics then the reality. The zionist are known to support kurds (the comminst) uprising as a military stratagy!! The zionist entity is doing harm to itself by upsetting the turks! One of the formible military ally. Anyway we digressing from the topic! It would be better to take this up in an educated turkish forum and not a religious one!

[hereiamguy]

I consider religious texts to be metaphors, tales of wisdom, and sometimes outright fiction.

thats interesting because many non-practicing muslims believe that too.
the truth is legitimacy of Islam is not dependent on authenticity of religious textures. and we know exactly what is a metaphor and what is not.

let me tell you something you might find interesting enough to investigate.

what makes islam legitimate is how our Creator, Allah (SWT) has laid out numerous Signs in this universe for us to observe, analyze and ponder upon. The Qur'an, and indeed previous religious texts that were abrogated, basically help us in recognizing Allah, our purpose of life and the Day when we hand over our answer sheets.

The Qur'an asks us to look around at the perfect solar system, the galaxy, the interchanging of Day and Night, the Stars, the dead earth coming back to life through rain, the various animals on earth, fruits, our own bodies, minds and last but not least our birth and death.

Who designed and put this system in place?
Who keeps it running?
why did He do it?
what purpose we serve in this system?

contrary to what atheists might wish to believe, science does accentuate the answers to these questions given by Islam. i am a control system engineer, and it is impossible to build a system that runs on its own without a starting condition, a trigger, reference , source of energy,and a-priori system model. you cant remove even one of them from the equation.the governing equations we discovered for the interplanetary motion, who put them in place?why was it inverse of 'r' squared and not 'r' cubed?

so you see science helps us study the signs around us that Qur'an wishes us to study. but these signs do not require a mighty intellect or a degree in science to identify. they are simple things that any unlettered man can even see. we also have an in built mechanism that tells us when we have identified a Sign. no light bulbs flash on and off. we just know. this in built system was designed by our Creator so that we can identify Him. if we reject this recognition we witness a feeling known as 'emptiness'. the cure for that is not music or parties or adventure trips etc. the cure is remembrance of Allah. it is the only long lasting proven way of curing 'emptiness' which has no side effects.

you may notice that i havent talked about authenticity of texts.

another thing you may notice is maths and justice. how are they related?
if i take out something from LHS of equation then in order for equation to be balanced the RHS must adjust as well. this is how it works in nature right?

But Hitler killed millions of Jews. yet he died in a bunker after committing suicide. no matter how much we malign and hate him today is he around to see this?was he prosecuted?was he made to feel the horror every one of his victims and their families and those who suffered fghting under him felt?
how about the nazis who actually carried out the holocaust?a nazi for example killed hundreds in Gas chamber yet he was shot by soviets. how is that justice?one shot, seconds of pain. but on the other hand hundred victims who died painful deaths?
what about the victims families?what about their pain?was it repaid?

so you see something is missing in this world. yet nature tells us it isnt so. so there has to be life after death so that those people who did evil in this world and went relatively unpunished can now be punished.( and for those who did good they can be rewarded).
what in reality is happening to Hitler wherever he is buried is that his conscious awake soul is being tortured continuously as though it is on his physical body. its not a dream, its another world which you and i cant (but horses near graveyards can ) sense or see.

when he will be resurrected he will face all of his victims. one by one. his good deeds will be given to them, their evil deeds hung on his neck and he will be thrown into Hell fire to be punished for all eternity. why eternity?one possible explanation is that had he lived eternally he would have continued to do what he was doing at his peak.if he is sent back right now he would do it again and again.

you will again notice i havent touched the scriptures yet. this is basic logic.

now coming to Qur'an. why is it authentic? It is because of the miracles of the Qur'an: the prophecies in it which all came true , the language, the preservation, the Signs which we talked about, the definition of human nature that was never discovered by any philosopher, among others.
It is mainly the Signs which create and affirm our belief that the Qur'an is from Allah.

but on an academic level how is it preserved?it is preserved by large scale memorization since the day it was revealed to Prophet Muhammad PBUH. even now this has not changed. nobody could alter the Quran because there were just too many narrators.unless you wish to tell me that different narrators at different time periods and different locations lied about the exact same thing?

then we move to Hadith or sayings of the Prophet (PBUH). there werent as many narrators as of the Qur'an so some people slipped in fabrications. but we found them and sifted them from the truth. so for the true words there is no reason to suspect them unless one is saying the same narrators they trust to have memorized the Qur'an perfectly and passed it down to next generation perfectly made mistakes with the hadith?that is again illogical. you dont reject one of them. you either accept both or reject both.

so forgive me for saying but i do not think the Islamic scriptures and sayings have any problem of authenticity.
but that doesnt form the basis of my belief.

as for metaphors. we interpret the Qur'an according to how the Prophet (PBUH) taught us and how his immediate students and next two generations understood it. Why? because that was commanded by Allah (SWT). to authenticate this claim again refer to the above para about authenticity of Qur'an. so the metaphors we know and the real incidents we know as well. one again must not think 'how is this possible'...because Allah (SWT) can do anything. He made the rules of nature and universe. we just discovered some of them and which we know as science : ). 2 centuries ago people wouldnt know how it was possible for you and to communicate. now it is possible. but then again we will never be able to work out how to make the dead alive. so scrutinizing the possibility of something that Allah (SWT) has stated in the Qur'an is not a wise approach.

forgive me for going way off topic. you just seemed like an educated person so perhaps you may find the above writing interesting. if you do, i suggest you read an English translation of the Qur'an.

enjoy your stay here.

[hereiamguy]

I wish you would like or dislike people based on what is in their heart

In Islam the accepted norm is that we judge according to what is obvious.
for example we see you as an American cultural jew.
because that is what you said right?and this is also evident from your posts.

this approach removes the burden of guessing people's intentions. sometimes however truth about something or someone is difficult to ascertain. in that case we just 'assume the best' about people.

but for jews our feelings are from what was described to us by our brothers and sisters who have interacted with jews. but as you can see from this discussion we are always willing to update our databases : )

[sensation]

Wow. A lot to go through. I will return to these excellent philosophical questions soon, but my wife is out of town, and the kids aren't in school and I am only one man against the tide of the terror of CHILDREN. I did read the Koran, and a few Hadiths in my comparative religion class at UChicago. We had that, Tao Te Ching, Bagavhad Gita, some Buddhist Teachings...

My perspective doesn't include purpose or plan, just a confluence of physical laws, human behavior and blind luck. I find value in my traditions and celebrations and texts, but only how they describe the former.

[sensation]

Alas, that's not true. My great grandfather was a learned man in a peaceful village. They took all men and boys over 13 out behind the church and shot them dead. My grandfather was saved because my great grandmother lied and said he was 12.

[euylvaygdq]

Wow. A lot to go through. I will return to these excellent philosophical questions soon, but my wife is out of town, and the kids aren't in school and I am only one man against the tide of the terror of CHILDREN. I did read the Koran, and a few Hadiths in my comparative religion class at UChicago. We had that, Tao Te Ching, Bagavhad Gita, some Buddhist Teachings...

My perspective doesn't include purpose or plan, just a confluence of physical laws, human behavior and blind luck. I find value in my traditions and celebrations and texts, but only how they describe the former.

Hi

[Ephedrine]

Peace, VisitingJewishGuy

Welcome to this forum. I am sure you will find much benefit in terms of the discourses taking place on this forum. I have learnt a lot here (as a 'jew-converted-to- Islaam'.)

[sensation]

The number of orthodox Jews who oppose Zionism are very small. A modern state offers them a chance to study with the ancient texts and artifacts. Only two koyfs (Hasidic dynasties) out hundreds oppose it.

Homosexuality is a sin to some, but so is blasphemy. Sin under religious law is not the same as crime under civil law. We believe in free speech here in the US. That means parades from homosexuals, and marches defending mosques. And the right to curse the name of God.

An open society creates more scientific and cultural advancement. Islamic society was much more open than European society in the dark ages. That's why it was more advanced culturally and scientifically. When culture closes off, when you stop tolerating difference, that's when a culture slows down.

many orthodox conservative haredi jews opposed zionism...

zionism is just like Modernism in Islam.....almost same concept
the core is Liberalism, secularism etc

look how the zionist allowed Homos to parade in their land, and pissing of the conservative Jews...

[sensation]

Well, let's define our terms. You can't really be a Zionist unless you live in Israel. You can be a pro-Zionist, like David Frum (the one who made that phrase up). The noble lie is something *all* political leaders use at one time or another. Unless you actually believe the religion, you practice the noble lie. I happen to believe that most religion is noble lie. Did Jesus actually rise from the grave? No. But in writing the magic, the authors are saying "PAY ATTENTION! THIS IS IMPORTANT!" It's becoming more and more clear that there was no Hebrew migration from Egypt across the Sinai - there's no archaeological evidence. That means there was no Exodus, no Moses - not in the way described in Torah. But because Jews believed that for thousands of years, we have kept together, kept learning, kept questioning, kept understanding. It doesn't particularly matter that it didn't happen - that's the least interesting thing about religion.

I don't know too much about Islamic modernists - I know a few Sufis and Bahai'i, but most of the muslims I know are both fully socialized Americans and practicing Muslims. They follow the five pillars and ... well, are Americans in every other way.

Many Zionist leaders believe in the 'noble lie' and are kind of machiavellian, many neo-conservertives involved in American politics are Zionists and very influential. The man who coined the phrase Axis of Evil in one of the Bush speeches was a Zionist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_lie

Interesting that sakenraz compares Zionism to Islamic modernists like the Ikhwani Muslimeen, I think this is accurate. The Muslim modernists have also been influenced heavily by Fascism see:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_n24944818/

[sensation]

And HI BACK!!

Hi

[euylvaygdq]

I happen to believe that most religion is noble lie. Did Jesus actually rise from the grave? No. But in writing the magic, the authors are saying "PAY ATTENTION! THIS IS IMPORTANT!" It's becoming more and more clear that there was no Hebrew migration from Egypt across the Sinai - there's no archaeological evidence. That means there was no Exodus, no Moses - not in the way described in Torah. But because Jews believed that for thousands of years, we have kept together, kept learning, kept questioning, kept understanding. It doesn't particularly matter that it didn't happen - that's the least interesting thing about religion.

Wow, so what's left in your belief.Do you still believe in a single God?

P.s. For Muslims belief in the existence of Moses (as) is necessary to be inside the folds of Islam.