[hs6KnlcW]

Dear Sister.
I really should not be arguing with you on this but comparing two different faiths is always like comparing apples and oranges.
You say that I compared the Anglican Church with the worldwide Muslim population. The reason is simple. The orthodox Muslims or the Ahl al Sunna constitute 90% of the entire Muslim population. We don't have different churches and we don't have different denominations with their own flock. So, we all belong to the Church of Allah. Hence the comparison. Secondly which Church is it that represents the entire Christian population of the world?
Another interesting thing in your post is your claim that certain denominations are seeing "huge increases" including huge number of youth. Would love to know which Churches those are. Otherwise most well known Churches are in decline. I already put up an article from a Catholic website about the RC church. Here are some links to details about some other churches:

Decline of the Baptists:
http://chronicle.augusta.com/news/me...numbers?page=4

Decline of the Episcopalians:
http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~lcrew/dojustice/j325.html

Decline of the Methodists:
http://www.umc.org/site/apps/nlnet/c...393&ct=8535221

Decline of the Swiss Protestants:
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_ne...l?cid=28258772

And finally a general survey:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CHISTORY/usrelpan.HTM

Assalam alaykum,

I believe that the churches on the rise are the Emerging Churches, some newer Evangelical and Bible Churches such as Calvary Chapel, and.the Pentecostal Churches.

Wassalam

[chipkluchi]

I have also heard the Evangelicals are spreading fast in South Korea... a good number of Evangelical preachers are now from that country. And quite enthusiastic. Not long ago 23 of them were kidnapped in Afghanistan.

[Ruilnasr]

I have also heard the Evangelicals are spreading fast in South Korea... a good number of Evangelical preachers are now from that country. And quite enthusiastic. Not long ago 23 of them were kidnapped in Afghanistan.

Do you know how many members Pastor Cho's church currently has? Wikipedia claims it is over 1 mil. (but I am not a fan of wikipedia for a source).

As a side, mega-churches have been on the rise for some time now. (You can find a list of mega churches and their size on this website: http://hirr.hartsem.edu/megachurch/database.html )






China and Africa are two other places that have growing Christian populations.

[Fiesialenp]

I am not sure if this is a good thing in short term. Atleast established sects i.e catholic, orthodox, coptic have some scholarly discourse. However their losing ground to briain dead, emotional pathological hate driven sect like Zionist Evengelical. Their literal take on their text and over emphasis on dooms day sayer cult like existance puts an end to any inteligent converstaion. Village like unsophisticate people seems to be on the rise.
Batil by natur bounds to fall.
Allahualam

This is a very good point, the orthodox branches of christianity have a firm set of codified beliefs and have been traditionally anti zionist due tp zionosm roots in hate and racism. As christians move away from those bases they are prone to extremeism. That extremeosm may manifest itself in christian zionism or new age perenialosm or even tp atheism

[Enliseell]

This is a very good point, the orthodox branches of christianity have a firm set of codified beliefs and have been traditionally anti zionist due tp zionosm roots in hate and racism. As christians move away from those bases they are prone to extremeism. That extremeosm may manifest itself in christian zionism or new age perenialosm or even tp atheism

brother.
Are you sure?
The analysis of the reasons that I have read for the decline of Protestant Churches in the US and Canada states that the major reason for their decline is the identification of these churches with fundamentalism in peoples' minds.

[Enliseell]

http://drabutamim.blogspot.com/2011/...ic-church.html

[Fiesialenp]

brother.
Are you sure?
The analysis of the reasons that I have read for the decline of Protestant Churches in the US and Canada states that the major reason for their decline is the identification of these churches with fundamentalism in peoples' minds.

I would suspect what youve read are articles and studies done and written by materialist lefties. I converted to Islam from protestant christianity, the maternal side of my family is made up of these people, My step father is a pastor, and I live in a city where the two biggest Evangelical organizations in the US are headquartered, Focus on the Family and New Life Mega Church (most famous for the Pastor Ted Haggard scandle). From my experiences, Evangelicals face much of the same attacks Muslims face from the media. When a Muslim says he is 100% in favor of Sharia law, hes branded an extremist and possible terrorist. When an Evangelical says hes against homosexuality or agrees with the more "Islamic" views of the bible, hes branded an extremeist. So when you read an article citing evangelical extremism as a problem, I would take it with a grain of salt, just as you would an article written about Muslims. The reason being is that as an unbiased outside observer, living in the evangelical epicenter of the US (if not the world) - I dont see ANY extremism in the vast majority of evangelicals. Now I know that the last sentence is going to get a response. But the reason I say this is because I like to approach the subject with some intellectule honesty, and I see many evangelicals who have taken extreme positions against Islam and Muslims, but I see Muslims take extreme positions in opposition of christian s and jews too, but I wouldnt call them extremists, so I dont call the evangelicals who rail against us extremists.

Now to my second point. The nature of Evangelical Christianity is one of self teaching, self interpretation. In their opposition to the corruptness of the Catholic church, they have sytematicly dismatled the evangelical scholarly class. The highest ranking evangelical scholar would be best compared to someone like Hamza Yusuf - Hamza Yusuf is a very knowledgable and intelegent speaker, but he is not at the level of someone like Mufti Taqi Uthamani. In addition, they have no codified Aqeedah - these two factors have lead to evangelcalism becoming a religion made up entirely of laymen.
Wheich then leads to their beleifs being based on popular oppinion rather than Scholarly Oppinion. A good example of this Popular opinion becoming aqeedah is the concept of the rapture - a concept completely foreign to Martin Luther, father of Protestantism. A concept that came into existaqnce 1,800 or so years after Jesus left this world, and 1,300 years after the Bible had been completed. Today, if you ask an evangelical about the rapture, they will consider it a bedrock belief of christianity.

The basic structure of their religion will lead to their demise - as cited in the article you posted - christians do not find any conflict with believing in reincarnation and the Bible at the same time, I know many christians who have no problem with beliveing Jesus died on the cross for their sins and that6 Muhamed is the final messenger of God the father. Their religion is becoming like the tip of a miswak - it started out as a solid root at the council of Nicea - the Powerful forces of constatine crushed all opposition to the nicean creed, but now each fiber is spliting off from the root with their own set of beliefs - These seperate branches can manifest itself in the form of Westboro Babtist church who protest at soldier funerals and call the greeving family members murders and gay lovers. or into perenialist, universalist, new ager christains - because they have no standard beleif structure.

[Itrtuawh]

^

Even though it is not directly related to the discussion, but I would like to ask concerning the Catholic or Orthodox Christian traditions, who at least nominally, claim to have a more systematic approach to their religion, how would we confront their claims of having proper succession leading back to Jesus (Alayhi Salaam), and that this guarantees the correctness of their religion.

Of course, the 'rational discourse' portion of their 'Aqeedah can be handled by a learned Muslim (and I think myself that the one grounded in 'Aqeedah should constantly pound them on this angle), but I wanted to know more about how to refute their 'apostolic succession' claims, since this is the 'lesser leg' in trying to show their religions as incorrect.

[Enliseell]

I would suspect what youve read are articles and studies done and written by materialist lefties.

Actually the articles I read were by Churchmen. But the points that you have raised are quite pertinent.

[Enliseell]

I loath the evengelical zionist christian. They hate muslims and have no problem using all the underhanded tactics. Alan Craig of Christian alliance party is one of such low life. He makes unfounded claim and accuses muslims but this hasn't stopped gullible christian fearing loss of their identity voting for him. The growth is fuel by doomsday cult imported from states. vast majority of the the tea party supporter and their intelectual capacity of a simplton befits cult status.
Allahualam

You think that Christians are gullible?

[Fiesialenp]

^

Even though it is not directly related to the discussion, but I would like to ask concerning the Catholic or Orthodox Christian traditions, who at least nominally, claim to have a more systematic approach to their religion, how would we confront their claims of having proper succession leading back to Jesus (Alayhi Salaam), and that this guarantees the correctness of their religion.

Of course, the 'rational discourse' portion of their 'Aqeedah can be handled by a learned Muslim (and I think myself that the one grounded in 'Aqeedah should constantly pound them on this angle), but I wanted to know more about how to refute their 'apostolic succession' claims, since this is the 'lesser leg' in trying to show their religions as incorrect.

I think its quite easy to oppose their isnad back to Jesus and the method by doing so would be the same method one uses to varify an Isnad back to Rasoolullah - Their claims of Isnad back to even Paul are weak by Islamic standards and Western Academic standards, Western Academics Trust the Islamic method of grading ahadith - they deem it as reliable - however, Not even the church knows who authored the Bible, Nor do they know the authenticity of the Apostles lives and actions during Jesus' stay on earth or after - one example of this is the Clementine codex which was written by Pope clementine before he became pope - and his history of the Apostles differs from official church history or even Acts itslef. Their beleif in a sahih isnad back to Peter or even Jesus is based solely on faith, and any academic debate with them will reveal this.

[Fiesialenp]

You think that Christians are gullible?

You bet they are, They are American right? Most Americans dont know a thing about things outside their tiny little bubble in suburbia - Amercan christians are just as sheltered, and the knowledge they do have about Islam, or even christianity is knowledge they hear from pastors, or Glen Beck or Rush Limbaugh - a recent study I read showed that die hard Fox News watchers and right wing talk radio listeners are the least accurately informed constituency - and in my experience, a very vocal constituency.

I do want to exclude people like PR and many other christians I have met who are the exception to this.

[no02rSx2]

You bet they are, They are American right? Most Americans dont know a thing about things outside their tiny little bubble in suburbia - Amercan christians are just as sheltered, and the knowledge they do have about Islam, or even christianity is knowledge they hear from pastors, or Glen Beck or Rush Limbaugh - a recent study I read showed that die hard Fox News watchers and right wing talk radio listeners are the least accurately informed constituency - and in my experience, a very vocal constituency.

I do want to exclude people like PR and many other christians I have met who are the exception to this.

Dear Brother,
I am lodging my request for posts on above three people (separately) on your blog here at SF.
Wassalam

[freeringsf]

I'm not sure why you seem to be so happy at the demise of the Anglican Church, I personally think it would be quite sad considering how religion is something which protects the people against secular thoughts and on a whole it calls people to God rather than the life of materialism which is promoted amongst the media today.

[hs6KnlcW]

I'm not sure why you seem to be so happy at the demise of the Anglican Church, I personally think it would be quite sad considering how religion is something which protects the people against secular thoughts and on a whole it calls people to God rather than the life of materialism which is promoted amongst the media today.

Assalam alaykum,

I agree with this post.

Wassalam

[Enliseell]

I'm not sure why you seem to be so happy at the demise of the Anglican Church, I personally think it would be quite sad considering how religion is something which protects the people against secular thoughts and on a whole it calls people to God rather than the life of materialism which is promoted amongst the media today.

Think deeply. The demise of a Church leads to the demise of an entire framework of kufr and shikr that holds hundreds of thousands of people in thrall. Many Christians remain what they are simply because of the social support system that the Church enables. Stepping away from the Church opens their eyes often to the real faith viz Islam. Secondly whether Christian or atheist, for Allah both are kaafirs.

[Fiesialenp]

whether Christian or atheist, for Allah both are kaafirs.

One of the beautiful things of Islam is that Islam recognizes that every aspect of life is varuious shades of grey rather than just black and white - this goes the same for Kaffirs - if Atheists and Christians were indistinguishable, then Allah and His beloved Rasool would not have made distinctions between them.

The slow death of their religion may have a positive outcome, and it may have a negative outcome - On the positive side, it will free billions of souls from the grip of an illogical view of God. I have noticed that many Christians who free themselves from the confines of what the church says, and begin thinking for themselves, revert back to their fitrah nature and become pure monotheists, misguided monotheists, but monotheists nonetheless.

On The negative side, these people could turn to the world and become less and less religious (a trend affecting Muslims as well) - which could lead to atheism - which is worse than Christianity.

Which ever way it goes, Allah is the best of planners.

[Fiesialenp]

Dear Brother,
I am lodging my request for posts on above three people (separately) on your blog here at SF.
Wassalam

Which three individuals, and what would you like to know about them?

[Usesdiums]

Think deeply. The demise of a Church leads to the demise of an entire framework of kufr and shikr that holds hundreds of thousands of people in thrall. Many Christians remain what they are simply because of the social support system that the Church enables. Stepping away from the Church opens their eyes often to the real faith viz Islam. Secondly whether Christian or atheist, for Allah both are kaafirs.

I humbly disagree. Leaving Christianity generally leads to atheism which is even worse in my eyes. No acknowledgement of God and arrogant at the same time compared to acknowledgement of SOME God albeit misguided.

I'd encourage Christians to study their religion thoroughly not through some Evangelical pastor, for it's through in depth study that leads them to Islam Inshallah.

The Evangelical morons have never studied the Bible thoroughly other than some choice twisted anecdotes from an even more moronic (might I add satanic) pastor on TV like Swaggart et al.

Money grabbing, self serving scumbags who have no feelings for their "flock" other than how many dollars they can put in their back pocket.

It's sad how gullible or should I say spiritually vulnerable people put all their faith (scuse the pun) in a con artist but fall for the same lies time and time again. All they want is peace of mind and contentment. All the while true salvation is there in Islam but they won't even open The Quran.

I guess that's what Imaan is.....ajeeb as the elders say.

[no02rSx2]

I'd encourage Christians to study their religion thoroughly not through some Evangelical pastor, for it's through in depth study that leads them to Islam Inshallah. May be. But the possibility is still remote unless we do something. The present environment is decidedly against Islam. Islam is not even an option. See, for example, a light heart mention.

The Evangelical morons have never studied the Bible thoroughly other than some choice twisted anecdotes from an even more moronic (might I add satanic) pastor on TV like Swaggart et al. True. The first thing is obvious, for example, from Deedat debate with Sorosh. But our responsibility does not stop at debate.
Money grabbing, self serving scumbags who have no feelings for their "flock" other than how many dollars they can put in their back pocket. I'll assume that Allah (SWT) is feeding them-if, a big if, we keep doing our job of communication Islam to them-we need an appreciable amount of Dawah effort to absolve ourselves of our responsibility.

It's sad how gullible or should I say spiritually vulnerable people put all their faith (excuse the pun) in a con artist but fall for the same lies time and time again. Take this as an indication of the fact that people are in search of truth and we are not delivering it. Islam is not only a blessing but a trust as well and we are guilty of not returning the trust to the people to which it belongs.

All they want is peace of mind and contentment. All the while true salvation is there in Islam but they won't even open The Quran. As I said-we have to do some thing so that they start opening it.
I guess that's what Imaan is.....ajeeb as the elders say. A fitting conclusion brother.
Wassalam