[Enliseell]

http://drabutamim.blogspot.com/2011/...crumbling.html

[chipkluchi]

The Anglican Church seems to be still ticking outside of the UK though, eg in Africa, so don't count them out just yet... African Anglicans raised a hullabaloo when a gay bishop was ordained in England, or so I've heard, for example.

It might be the Archbishop will one day be black because they couldn't find any suitable Englishmen...

[Usesdiums]

it fails to address the growing problem of atheism amongst the youth in general especially in nominal Christians.

[Itrtuawh]

it fails to address the growing problem of atheism amongst the youth in general especially in nominal Christians. This is definitely one issue in many countries around the world, as (for example) 70% of them will say they are Christians, while at the same time 20% are confirmed atheists, 60% think that there is something out there but do not what it is exactly, and only 20% definitely believe that "God exists".

So there seems to be a huge deal of confusion among the Christians as to what being a Christian really is. Part of it is due to the fact that their religion is untenable in many ways, and some of it may be due to the rise of Scientism as a religion in itself.

[Ruilnasr]

To be honest, you can't compare the decline of the Church of England with "the number of youths around the world that have started attending Mosques." It is like comparing apples and oranges.

[pirinosa]

To be honest, you can't compare the decline of the Church of England with "the number of youths around the world that have started attending Mosques." It is like comparing apples and oranges.

comparing the number of people attend mosques with the number of people attending churches is apples and oranges?

The reality is the western youth hate christianity and the church while the muslim youth living in the west love islam and are getting more and more zealous by the day. Comparing two religions to see which one is stronger and flourishing more is hardly comparing apples and oranges

[vqIo7X2U]

The Anglican Church seems to be still ticking outside of the UK though, eg in Africa, so don't count them out just yet... African Anglicans raised a hullabaloo when a gay bishop was ordained in England, or so I've heard, for example.

It might be the Archbishop will one day be black because they couldn't find any suitable Englishmen...

The chances of that happening are about the same as the cardinals electing a black pope. Never gonna happen. Europeans are just far too racist.

[Usesdiums]

add to that Islam giving the individual the PRACTICAL guidance on how to live day to day which isn't available in any other religion (The closest being Judaism). It solves every person's dilemmas both on a micro and macro level.

with the problems of the world especially economic spelling doom and gloom especially for the youth, many walk away from Christianity due it's vagueness on solving unemployment, inflation etc. Simply chanting some Hallelujah's with a pastor on sunday doesn't cut it. there is no practical solution(s).

instead atheism promotes the rule of the jungle because it's about the individual believing THEY are all that matters and that appeals to the youth who employ emotional reasoning over logical reasoning in a general sense.

add to that television, with USA and UK the world leaders in people sitting around watching useless rubbish. the television promotes atheism not spirituality and so of course the youth will turn away from religion. the television makes it a habit of mocking Christianity and this is constantly fed to the viewers.

maybe the BNP can make THAT their next election menifesto; "sort our own houses out first".

[Ruilnasr]

comparing the number of people attend mosques with the number of people attending churches is apples and oranges?

The reality is the western youth hate christianity and the church while the muslim youth living in the west love islam and are getting more and more zealous by the day. Comparing two religions to see which one is stronger and flourishing more is hardly comparing apples and oranges

But it is not comparing two religions, nor the growth of each religion. His comparison is comparing one specific denomination, within a specific country, to an entire religion worldwide. The Church of England is not representative of Christianity as a whole. On a whole, both Christianity and Islam are growing in number.

[Argurnenoni]

http://drabutamim.blogspot.com/2011/...crumbling.html

Would the prophet of Islam cheer the demise of a Christian denomination because their former young adherents are flocking to atheism? Let's remember that Islam offers a complete way of life that most Christian denominations can't come close to. Christianity also allows for more personal interpretation in a way. For some young westerners who feel lost in the wilderness of modernism and secularism in societies where their national traditional values are disappearing, a sturdy alternative is Islam since it offers a blueprint. I suspect that some converts come to Islam not because of spiritual reasons but because they are looking for a system to guide them, to show them a way, since they feel lost, they need something...to tell them what to do... because the alternative is percieieved as chaos to some minds.

[Itrtuawh]

But it is not comparing two religions, nor the growth of each religion. His comparison is comparing one specific denomination, within a specific country, to an entire religion worldwide. The Church of England is not representative of Christianity as a whole. On a whole, both Christianity and Islam are growing in number. We Muslims will point out that Islam is perhaps the fastest growing religion in terms of percentage growth, while the Christians will point out that it is the fastest growing religion in numerical terms.

About Christians, it is interesting to note the following study by the Pew research forum, where it says that a sizable percentage of American Christians hold on to explicitly non-Christian beliefs:

http://pewforum.org/Other-Beliefs-an...le-Faiths.aspx

The religious beliefs and practices of Americans do not fit neatly into conventional categories. A new poll by the Pew Research Center's Forum on Religion & Public Life finds that large numbers of Americans engage in multiple religious practices, mixing elements of diverse traditions. Many say they attend worship services of more than one faith or denomination -- even when they are not traveling or going to special events like weddings and funerals. Many also blend Christianity with Eastern or New Age beliefs such as reincarnation, astrology and the presence of spiritual energy in physical objects...

Though the U.S. is an overwhelmingly Christian country, significant minorities profess belief in a variety of Eastern or New Age beliefs. For instance, 24% of the public overall and 22% of Christians say they believe in reincarnation -- that people will be reborn in this world again and again. And similar numbers (25% of the public overall, 23% of Christians) believe in astrology...

So it seems that for whatever reason, there is some sort of ambiguity among American Christians as to what the basis of their religion actually is and what they may and may not believe in. The reasons can always be debated but it seems to be mostly due to the secular upbringing and education in their country and in most of the world.

[Ruilnasr]

So it seems that for whatever reason, there is some sort of ambiguity among American Christians as to what the basis of their religion actually is and what they may and may not believe in. The reasons can always be debated but it seems to be mostly due to the secular upbringing and education in their country and in most of the world.

I don't disagree with your post, but I am not sure what the state of american christians has to do with the poor comparison between the church of england and the worldwide muslim population made in the opening post. My point was simply that it is not a comparison that can be made, because it is apples and oranges.

[Enliseell]

I don't disagree with your post, but I am not sure what the state of american christians has to do with the poor comparison between the church of england and the worldwide muslim population made in the opening post. My point was simply that it is not a comparison that can be made, because it is apples and oranges.

I was not comparing the "Church of England" with the Muslim "population" as you put it. What I was comparing was the "age" of the average worshipper in the CoE and in the mosque. Because of the work of Da'wah movements like Tabligh and some others there is a global Islamic awakening and the Muslim youth are being seen in much greater numbers in the mosques. And because of the global Christian decline, only the older worshippers are seen in their Churches which has become a cause of worry for their leaders as is obvious from the article. Hope that it is clear now.

[Enliseell]

But it is not comparing two religions, nor the growth of each religion. His comparison is comparing one specific denomination, within a specific country, to an entire religion worldwide. The Church of England is not representative of Christianity as a whole. On a whole, both Christianity and Islam are growing in number.

Would you prefer something from the Catholics?:
"The Incredible Shrinking Catholic Church

Time magazine wanted to talk theology with Mel Gibson recently on the set of The Passion, his new movie depicting the last hours of Christ. Asked what he thought about the effects of the Second Vatican Council on the Catholic Church, the Braveheart of Catholic traditionalists said, "Look at the main fruits: dwindling numbers and pedophilia."

Gibson's post Vatican II ergo propter Vatican II argument would be enough to drive any high school logic teacher crazy. Is the Council responsible for all the Church's ills, including the priestly sex-abuse crisis, that have arisen since the Council closed in 1965? After all, many of the abuse allegations pre-dated the Council, and some of the most notorious offenders--like John Geoghan and Paul Shanley--were trained in the pre-Vatican II seminaries. Too many factors come into play to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the Council caused the pedophile priest phenomenon.

But Gibson comes closer to the mark when blaming the Second Vatican Council for the "dwindling numbers. In fact he is being generous, because "plummeting  would be a more accurate term than "dwindling" to describe of the incredibly shrinking Catholic Church since 1965. In every area that is statistically measurable--such as the number of priests, seminarians, priestless parishes and nuns--the deterioration is obvious, and is the exact opposite of the trends before the Council.

EMPTY SEMINARIES

Beyond a vague understanding of a need for "more vocations," most Catholics are perhaps unaware of the disaster facing the American priesthood. After skyrocketing from about 27,000 in 1930 to 58,000 in 1965, the number of priests in the United States dropped to 45,000 in 2002. By 2020, there will be about 31,000 priests--and only 15,000 will be under the age of 70, according to a study conducted by Dr. James R. Lothian of Fordham University.

The shortage of priests has created a problem previously unknown to modern Catholics: the priestless parish. Only 3 percent of the parishes in the US--a total of 549--were without a priest in 1965. In 2002 there were 2,928 priestless parishes, about 15 percent of all US parishes. By 2020, a quarter of all parishes, 4,656, will have no priest.

As one would expect, the priest dearth has been fueled by a collapse in the seminarian population. There were 16,300 seminarians in 1930 and 49,000 in 1965. By 2002 the number had plunged to 4,700: a 90 percent decrease. Without any students, countless seminaries across the country have been sold or shuttered. There were 596 seminaries in 1965, and only 200 in 2002.

And empty seminaries result in declining ordinations. While there were 1,575 ordinations to the priesthood in 1965, in 2002 there were 450, a decrease of 350 percent. Taking into account ordinations, deaths and departures, in 1965 there was a net gain of 725 priests. In 1998, there was a net loss of 810.

RELIGIOUS ORDERS DISAPPEARING

The tragedy of the convents has been perhaps even more startling. A host of 138,000 sisters ran the Catholic education and health systems in 1945; their numbers swelled to 180,000 by 1965. In 2002, there were 75,000 sisters, with an average age of 68. By 2020, the number of sisters will drop to 40,000--and of these, only 21,000 will be age 70 or under. One does not have to be Chicken Little to predict that within a generation there will be no nuns.

The same is true for the once-proud religious orders of men. For example, in 1965 there were 5,277 Jesuit priests and 3,559 seminarians; in 2000 there were 3,172 priests and 389 seminarians. There were 2,534 OFM Franciscan priests and 2,251 seminarians in 1965; in 2000 there were 1,492 priests and 60 seminarians. There were 2,434 Christian Brothers in 1965 and 912 seminarians; in 2000 there were 959 Brothers and 7 seminarians. It does not require special training in statistics to conclude that by 2050, if these trends continue, the Jesuits, the Franciscans, and the Christian Brothers, will be the virtually extinct in the US.

Other statistics on the life of the Catholic Church in America tell the same story. At the time of the Council there were 4.5 million students in US parochial schools; now there are 2 million. Before the Council there were less than 400 marriages annulled by Catholic diocesan tribunals in an average year; now there are 50,000. Before the Council 3 out of 4 Catholics attended Mass each week; now the figure is 1 in 4.

Given these alarming facts, one wonders how a movie star like Mel Gibson can sense a Church in extremis, but the American bishops cannot. They know the statistics (which are published by the US Conference of Catholic Bishops), yet take no action to counter the catastrophe.

The bishops do not have a good track record when it comes to responding to crisis. Just as they showed no interest in the sexual abuse of minors--in fact they were sometimes complicit--it is a good bet that the bishops will neglect the emergency that threatens the very existence of the Church in the America.

Kenneth C Jones of St. Louis is the author of Index of Leading Catholic Indicators: The Church since Vatican II, published by Oriens Publishing Co."

[Enliseell]

Salamu alaikum.
I have checked the post again and found the cause for the confusion. Instead of 'age and number' I had typed only 'number'. The post has been edited now. Please take a look again.

[Ruilnasr]

I was not comparing the "Church of England" with the Muslim "population" as you put it. What I was comparing was the "age" of the average worshipper in the CoE and in the mosque. Because of the work of Da'wah movements like Tabligh and some others there is a global Islamic awakening and the Muslim youth are being seen in much greater numbers in the mosques. And because of the global Christian decline, only the older worshippers are seen in their Churches which has become a cause of worry for their leaders as is obvious from the article. Hope that it is clear now.

I know you were comparing age-- but it was a comparison between the church of England and the worldwide Muslim population. You said, "Compare that with the age and number of youth that have started attending mosques around the world because of the global Islamic awakening". Your comparison was between one specific denomination, within a country, and with the global Muslim population.

Globally, the Christian religion is not in decline. Certain denominations are in sharp decline, and in certain countries there is a decline. Other denominations are seeing huge increases (including huge numbers of youth and young adults), and in some countries there is growth.

Your point is clear, and was clear. It is just a very poor comparison-- one that can not be made. If you want to compare one specific denomination in one area, then there is a church in the next town over that matches your description of the global Islamic awakening and its impact on a surge of the younger generation attending..... but that comparison would be a poor one as well.

[hs6KnlcW]

I know you were comparing age-- but it was a comparison between the church of England and the worldwide Muslim population. You said, "Compare that with the age and number of youth that have started attending mosques around the world because of the global Islamic awakening". Your comparison was between one specific denomination, within a country, and with the global Muslim population.

Globally, the Christian religion is not in decline. Certain denominations are in sharp decline, and in certain countries there is a decline. Other denominations are seeing huge increases (including huge numbers of youth and young adults), and in some countries there is growth.

Your point is clear, and was clear. It is just a very poor comparison-- one that can not be made. If you want to compare one specific denomination in one area, then there is a church in the next town over that matches your description of the global Islamic awakening and its impact on a surge of the younger generation attending..... but that comparison would be a poor one as well.

Assalam alaykum,

I agree with PouringRain on this one. As Mark Twain might say, The demise of the Church has been greatly exaggerated. Frankly, I don't relate to being joyful about it anyway, as I am a proponent of religious coexistence.

At any rate, if you want to see where the action is in Christianity, look at the Emerging Church, or the rise in Pentecostalism, or Bible Churches like Calvary Chapel, or the Catholic Ecumenical Movement. Regardless of what happens to individual denominations like the Church of England or the Episcopal Church in America, Christianity isn't going to die off. Far from it, so we should be willing to coexist peacefully.

Wassalam

[hs6KnlcW]

Would you prefer something from the Catholics?:
"The Incredible Shrinking Catholic Church

Time magazine wanted to talk theology with Mel Gibson recently on the set of The Passion, his new movie depicting the last hours of Christ. Asked what he thought about the effects of the Second Vatican Council on the Catholic Church, the Braveheart of Catholic traditionalists said, "Look at the main fruits: dwindling numbers and pedophilia."

Gibson's post Vatican II ergo propter Vatican II argument would be enough to drive any high school logic teacher crazy. Is the Council responsible for all the Church's ills, including the priestly sex-abuse crisis, that have arisen since the Council closed in 1965? After all, many of the abuse allegations pre-dated the Council, and some of the most notorious offenders--like John Geoghan and Paul Shanley--were trained in the pre-Vatican II seminaries. Too many factors come into play to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the Council caused the pedophile priest phenomenon.

But Gibson comes closer to the mark when blaming the Second Vatican Council for the "dwindling numbers. In fact he is being generous, because "plummeting would be a more accurate term than "dwindling" to describe of the incredibly shrinking Catholic Church since 1965. In every area that is statistically measurable--such as the number of priests, seminarians, priestless parishes and nuns--the deterioration is obvious, and is the exact opposite of the trends before the Council.

EMPTY SEMINARIES

Beyond a vague understanding of a need for "more vocations," most Catholics are perhaps unaware of the disaster facing the American priesthood. After skyrocketing from about 27,000 in 1930 to 58,000 in 1965, the number of priests in the United States dropped to 45,000 in 2002. By 2020, there will be about 31,000 priests--and only 15,000 will be under the age of 70, according to a study conducted by Dr. James R. Lothian of Fordham University.

The shortage of priests has created a problem previously unknown to modern Catholics: the priestless parish. Only 3 percent of the parishes in the US--a total of 549--were without a priest in 1965. In 2002 there were 2,928 priestless parishes, about 15 percent of all US parishes. By 2020, a quarter of all parishes, 4,656, will have no priest.

As one would expect, the priest dearth has been fueled by a collapse in the seminarian population. There were 16,300 seminarians in 1930 and 49,000 in 1965. By 2002 the number had plunged to 4,700: a 90 percent decrease. Without any students, countless seminaries across the country have been sold or shuttered. There were 596 seminaries in 1965, and only 200 in 2002.

And empty seminaries result in declining ordinations. While there were 1,575 ordinations to the priesthood in 1965, in 2002 there were 450, a decrease of 350 percent. Taking into account ordinations, deaths and departures, in 1965 there was a net gain of 725 priests. In 1998, there was a net loss of 810.

RELIGIOUS ORDERS DISAPPEARING

The tragedy of the convents has been perhaps even more startling. A host of 138,000 sisters ran the Catholic education and health systems in 1945; their numbers swelled to 180,000 by 1965. In 2002, there were 75,000 sisters, with an average age of 68. By 2020, the number of sisters will drop to 40,000--and of these, only 21,000 will be age 70 or under. One does not have to be Chicken Little to predict that within a generation there will be no nuns.

The same is true for the once-proud religious orders of men. For example, in 1965 there were 5,277 Jesuit priests and 3,559 seminarians; in 2000 there were 3,172 priests and 389 seminarians. There were 2,534 OFM Franciscan priests and 2,251 seminarians in 1965; in 2000 there were 1,492 priests and 60 seminarians. There were 2,434 Christian Brothers in 1965 and 912 seminarians; in 2000 there were 959 Brothers and 7 seminarians. It does not require special training in statistics to conclude that by 2050, if these trends continue, the Jesuits, the Franciscans, and the Christian Brothers, will be the virtually extinct in the US.

Other statistics on the life of the Catholic Church in America tell the same story. At the time of the Council there were 4.5 million students in US parochial schools; now there are 2 million. Before the Council there were less than 400 marriages annulled by Catholic diocesan tribunals in an average year; now there are 50,000. Before the Council 3 out of 4 Catholics attended Mass each week; now the figure is 1 in 4.

Given these alarming facts, one wonders how a movie star like Mel Gibson can sense a Church in extremis, but the American bishops cannot. They know the statistics (which are published by the US Conference of Catholic Bishops), yet take no action to counter the catastrophe.

The bishops do not have a good track record when it comes to responding to crisis. Just as they showed no interest in the sexual abuse of minors--in fact they were sometimes complicit--it is a good bet that the bishops will neglect the emergency that threatens the very existence of the Church in the America.

Kenneth C Jones of St. Louis is the author of Index of Leading Catholic Indicators: The Church since Vatican II, published by Oriens Publishing Co."

Assalam alaykum,

I'm not sure what the connection is between Vatican 2 and the problems of the American Catholic Church. It could even be argued that there has not been enough continuation of what Vatican 2 started over a half a century ago. The current Pope is now reversing some of those landmark changes by insisting on more Masses in Latin and reversing the ecumenical trend. But I will tell you that there is almost a single cause of the dwindling priesthood in America--celibacy. Priests still cannot marry and raise families like ordinary people. That's a lot for a young man to think about when considering a vocation.

Wassalam

[Enliseell]

I know you were comparing age-- but it was a comparison between the church of England and the worldwide Muslim population. You said, "Compare that with the age and number of youth that have started attending mosques around the world because of the global Islamic awakening". Your comparison was between one specific denomination, within a country, and with the global Muslim population.

Globally, the Christian religion is not in decline. Certain denominations are in sharp decline, and in certain countries there is a decline. Other denominations are seeing huge increases (including huge numbers of youth and young adults), and in some countries there is growth.

Your point is clear, and was clear. It is just a very poor comparison-- one that can not be made. If you want to compare one specific denomination in one area, then there is a church in the next town over that matches your description of the global Islamic awakening and its impact on a surge of the younger generation attending..... but that comparison would be a poor one as well.

Dear Sister.
I really should not be arguing with you on this but comparing two different faiths is always like comparing apples and oranges.
You say that I compared the Anglican Church with the worldwide Muslim population. The reason is simple. The orthodox Muslims or the Ahl al Sunna constitute 90% of the entire Muslim population. We don't have different churches and we don't have different denominations with their own flock. So, we all belong to the Church of Allah. Hence the comparison. Secondly which Church is it that represents the entire Christian population of the world?
Another interesting thing in your post is your claim that certain denominations are seeing "huge increases" including huge number of youth. Would love to know which Churches those are. Otherwise most well known Churches are in decline. I already put up an article from a Catholic website about the RC church. Here are some links to details about some other churches:

Decline of the Baptists:
http://chronicle.augusta.com/news/me...numbers?page=4

Decline of the Episcopalians:
http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~lcrew/dojustice/j325.html

Decline of the Methodists:
http://www.umc.org/site/apps/nlnet/c...393&ct=8535221

Decline of the Swiss Protestants:
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_ne...l?cid=28258772

And finally a general survey:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CHISTORY/usrelpan.HTM

[Enliseell]

Assalam alaykum,

I'm not sure what the connection is between Vatican 2 and the problems of the American Catholic Church. It could even be argued that there has not been enough continuation of what Vatican 2 started over a half a century ago. The current Pope is now reversing some of those landmark changes by insisting on more Masses in Latin and reversing the ecumenical trend. But I will tell you that there is almost a single cause of the dwindling priesthood in America--celibacy. Priests still cannot marry and raise families like ordinary people. That's a lot for a young man to think about when considering a vocation.

Wassalam

"The bishops do not have a good track record when it comes to responding to crisis. Just as they showed no interest in the sexual abuse of minors--in fact they were sometimes complicit--it is a good bet that the bishops will neglect the emergency that threatens the very existence of the Church in the America."