[perhilzit]

Why is it that some believe that the 'ulama they follow can NEVER be wrong?

Are the 'ulama infallible?

Why is it that some will defend their 'ulama no matter what?

What is the definition of the above mentality?

Can we question the 'ulama?

Are we worth the trouble for them to provide a reply?

[Dxwlxqvg]

Note: These r just my opinion.

Why is it that some believe that the 'ulama they follow can NEVER be wrong?

When people believe that they must do TAQLEED, then how they can measure who is right or wrong?

Are the 'ulama infallible? Not for every issue.

Why is it that some will defend their 'ulama no matter what? Again it is for TAQLEED.


What is the definition of the above mentality? Blindly follow

Can we question the 'ulama? Yes.
.... If ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message. 217)


:jazakL

[perhilzit]

Note: These r just my opinion.




When people believe that they must do TAQLEED, then how they can measure who is right or wrong?



Not for every issue.


Again it is for TAQLEED.




Blindly follow



Yes.
.... If ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message. 217)


:jazakL

Take your anti-madhabism, la-madhabism, ghayr muqallid, activism elsewhere. I am not interested in your opinion Oh you Ahl al-Nafs!

[pitoufsd]

Some of my questions regarding ulama having different opinions were answered when I read "al-I'tidaal fee Maraatib ar-Rijaal" by Hazrat Sheikh alHadeeth Maulana Muhammad Zakariyya nawwarallaahu marqadahu.

An English translation copy can be downloaded at http://central-mosque.com/index.php/...-politics.html

[boiffrona]

Why is it that some believe that the 'ulama they follow can NEVER be wrong?

Are the 'ulama infallible?

Why is it that some will defend their 'ulama no matter what?

What is the definition of the above mentality?

Can we question the 'ulama?

Are we worth the trouble for them to provide a reply?

As-salâmu 'alaykum wa rahmatullâhi wa barakâtuhu,
I will give you my understanding of this and this is only my personal understanding Im sure others will have theirs.

A layman is a layman
A student of Knowledge is a student of Knowledge
A scholar is a scholar

Let me give you an example, let's say someone you know is in hospital and Dr's are running about trying to find out what's going on and you have always has an interest in medicine so you look at the symptoms and use google on your phone to find out what it could be then stop the Dr's and tell them it could be this or could be that .... this is an insult to the Dr's isn't it?

It's the same with the scholars they have ijaza they have spent years and years of their lives to study the deen so the question I would ask is how can someone like me who is a layman who has love for my deen who has studied a little who has listened to a few lectures read a few books then question a Scholar?
An example would be Sheikh Mohammad Yaquobi (May Allah elevate his status) this is a sheikh I am listening to at the moment and when you read his biography and what he has had training in its 1000% more than I ever will.
If he says something that I have never heard before or something where my understanding is different I can't begin to question this sheikh can I? That's an insult to the shikh but if other scholars who have spent their lives studying disagree and want to exchange opinions about certain issues then that is their right and their right alone .. let the ulama question the ulama.

In order to say something is right or wrong you have to be qualified if something does not sit right with you then you must and should not blind follow and look and ask for the evidence for further understanding for the sake of learning and understanding their view and how they came to that.

I do not agree that as a layman you can then turn around and then say YOUR WRONG because this is the correct way because the chances are you are just stating the view of another scholar that sits right with you.

It is not necessary for others to think exactly like you, or to agree with everything you say or do and you can still get along very well with them.

Learn to listen to others and try to understand their views. Then remember that they have their own minds just like you do and they may disagree with you just like you may disagree with them.

All this does not have to create hatred in the heart.

You are right some will defend their ulama no matter what, and some of this can border on 'blind following' but this is because they lack knowledge and don't have the mentality that there could be different views and all views should be respected and they think it's their way or the highway and others are simply over passionate and do it to show their love because they feel they are being attacked because sometimes the questioner will not do it with Hikmah it will be done with arrogance or too much assertiveness.

Not sure if any of this has answered your questions but once again I am just sharing my views.

Jazak-Allah
Was-salâmu 'alaykum wa rahmatullâhi wa barakatuhu`

[perhilzit]

In order to say something is right or wrong you have to be qualified if something does not sit right with you then you must and should not blind follow and look and ask for the evidence for further understanding for the sake of learning and understanding their view and how they came to that.

When asking for the evidence used then you are shot down for not respecting the 'ulama, undermining the 'ulama, disagreeing with 'ulama, etc etc and all of this does not sit well some.

Don't ask questions. If Sheikh or Mufti so-and-so said this then he has to be right. He cannot be wrong. No questions asked.

[boiffrona]

When asking for the evidence used then you are shot down for not respecting the 'ulama, undermining the 'ulama, disagreeing with 'ulama, etc etc and all of this does not sit well some.

Don't ask questions. If Sheikh or Mufti so-and-so said this then he has to be right. He cannot be wrong. No questions asked.

As-salâmu 'alaykum wa rahmatullâhi wa barakâtuhu,

There is a difference in 'Asking a question' and 'questioning' ulama.
There is also an Adab to asking time/place/scenario/public/private etc.

Also what one has to realise is the questioner must also posses a certain amount of knowledge in order to question ulama depending on the type of subject they are talking about as an example if someone has never heard of Tassawaf and they are in a lecture about this subject for the very first time and then start asking 101 questions this doesn't make sense.

If you ask a ruling from a Mufti on an issue of Fiqh he can come to that answer by a simple verse in Quran or it could be a lengthy research into many books which could take a while before the answer can be given and if it was of the latter and you got the ruling and then asked why do you think you will understand? (when I say you I am not speaking directly about you, I mean 'we' or 'I' as in Laymen).

Once again brother just sharing my point of view.

Do you have an experience of this or has this been done to you? can you shed any lights as to what made you ask this question?

Jazak-Allah
Was-salâmu 'alaykum wa rahmatullâhi wa barakatuhu`

[perhilzit]

Do you have an experience of this or has this been done to you? can you shed any lights as to what made you ask this question?

Jazak-Allah
Was-salâmu 'alaykum wa rahmatullâhi wa barakatuhu`

There are two completely different aspects:

1) The 'ulama stance to questions etc.
2) The laymen/muridin/followers of the 'ulama

Some of the first aspect I tried to point out in an older thread, until people misunderstood my point and went off on different tangents.

Here, want to discuss the second aspect. That of the laymen. That of those who say "If so-and-so Sheikh has said "ABC" then undoubtedly it cannot be wrong, he is right even though other 'ulama have pointed out the error and is clearly and without doubt an error in the mirror of the Shari'ah.

This sheep-like blind following has caused more issues then we can imagine. This has raised 'ulama to a rank which Allah and his Rasul have not granted them but the laymen have!

[boiffrona]

This sheep-like blind following has caused more issues then we can imagine. This has raised 'ulama to a rank which Allah and his Rasul have not granted them but the laymen have!

You have answered your own question but this is not the fault of ulama, this is down to the laymen which then prompts the question who are responsible for the laymen? who will take this responsibility?

[perhilzit]

You have answered your own question but this is not the fault of ulama

The 'ulama are not entirely blameless either.

PS: Before people jump down my throat, I am not for a moment insinuating an attack on all the 'ulama, rather to a segment of the 'ulama. And likewise for the laymen.

[Hamucevasiop]

When asking for the evidence used then you are shot down for not respecting the 'ulama, undermining the 'ulama, disagreeing with 'ulama, etc etc and all of this does not sit well some.

Don't ask questions. If Sheikh or Mufti so-and-so said this then he has to be right. He cannot be wrong. No questions asked.

Obviously this thread has been opened due to some previous contention or dissatisfaction. As this has not been mentioned- probably wisely- it is diifuclt for anyone to understand where this thread is headed or what the point being made, is.

The 'ulama are not entirely blameless either.

PS: Before people jump down my throat, I am not for a moment insinuating an attack on all the 'ulama, rather to a segment of the 'ulama. And likewise for the laymen.

By your own admission, it is an attack? Albeit on a few individuals?

(Btw, your previous threads were not all deleted; one was moved to the Sensitive section and an explanation was provided.)

[perhilzit]

Obviously this thread has been opened due to some previous contention or dissatisfaction. As this has not been mentioned- probably wisely- it is diifuclt for anyone to understand where this thread is headed or what the point being made, is.

The very reason which does not allow me to elaborate further i.e. getting shot down, attacked, etc here is one (not the one and only) of the reasons of this thread.

This is the mentality, which I am pointing out, that we witness on a daily basis whether it is after Salah on the Masjid pavement, over tea with friends, in a discussion, and also online on places such as SF.



By your own admission, it is an attack? Albeit on a few individuals?

(Btw, your previous threads were not all deleted; one was moved to the Sensitive section and an explanation was provided.) Perhaps, I worded it poorly or did not double-check what I had written. I would not define it as an attack - more of a critical analysis. However, in the context of SF and the emotions of SF-members who would regard all of the above as an "attack", hence this word was used - albeit wrong.


====

The point being made is:

Why do some believe that 'ulama are beyond reproach? Do they believe 'ulama are masoom/infallible?
Is this above mentality, a mentality which was supported and propagated by the Salaf as well as our akabirin of Deoband?

[Hamucevasiop]

Well, I doubt anyone believes that ulamah are beyond reproach or masoom. I cannot see anyone supporting that.

[perhilzit]

Well, I doubt anyone believes that ulamah are beyond reproach or masoom. I cannot see anyone supporting that.

Just go through some of the older threads on SF and your above point will be disproved.

You often hear a person(s) say "Mawlana Fulan ibn Fulan said so-and-so so it has to be correct" or "Shaykh so-and-so done this so it has to be permissible"

If you are not aware of this then I do not know which box you living in!

[SallyIsNice5]

Well, I doubt anyone believes that ulamah are beyond reproach or masoom. I cannot see anyone supporting that.

People may not believe it but the body language and general behavious of mureeds in front of the shaykh implies, naoodhobillah, that the shaykh is beyond reproach. The only thing left on some occasions is sajdah. They quote Hazrat on everything as if he is the sole authority on deen.

Having said that, there are many shaykhs and mureeds are excellent.

[xanaxonlinexanax]

hmm, very abstract questions

Not helpful....

[perhilzit]

People may not believe it but the body language and general behavious of mureeds in front of the shaykh implies, naoodhobillah, that the shaykh is beyond reproach. The only thing left on some occasions is sajdah. They quote Hazrat on everything as if he is the sole authority on deen.

Having said that, there are many shaykhs and mureeds are excellent.

[QQQQQ-Trek]

I quote my Hazrat on everything because I've decided he is the one I should follow. However as long as I don't force it on others, I don't see it as something wrong. It stops me from 'fatwa shopping'.

[SallyIsNice5]

One the few, or many good shaykhs, Mufti/Shaykh Kamaluddin. Mashallah, he is excellent.

[Hamucevasiop]

Everyone has a few scholars whom they trust and who they refer to when there are multiple opinions. It does not mean they think they are masoom and infallible. It means that rather than confuse themselves, they'll accept that particular scholars opinion as the one he/she will adopt. Nothing sinister about it. The people who say...

You often hear a person(s) say "Mawlana Fulan ibn Fulan said so-and-so so it has to be correct" or "Shaykh so-and-so done this so it has to be permissible"

.... are simple minded folk who have not been entrapped into the 'question everything and everyone mentality.'

As for body language of mureeds in front of shuyookh, I don't witness much of that so cannot comment.