[Abebpabeniemo]

Asalamu Alaykum Wr. Wb.

Is it true that Saudi Arabia is a kafir nation?

Recently I got to know that countries like Iran, Libya, Jordan, Pakistan, claims to follow the shariah, but honestly speaking this can not be true.

If you follow the shariah you can't just follow 90% of it, or 50% of it, you have to follow shariah 100%, and shariah implies that there is Khilafat.
This means that Saudi Arabia does not follow the sharia and is a non-muslim country.

The Prophet (saw) said: "When the oath of allegiance has been taken for two Khalifs, kill the latter of them". Sahih Muslim

"And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided." (Ahle Imran: 103)

Imam Ahmad narrated in al-Musnad, from Abdullah bin Amr, Prophet (SAW) said: "It is not halal for three people to be in the desert wilderness, unless they appoint one of them as the amir (leader) for themselves."

"That the sultan (leader) is the shade of Allah on Earth." And it was said: "Sixty years of an unjust imam (ruler) are better than one night without a leader." (The words of Ibnu Taimiyah in al-Siyasah al-Syar'iyyah)

Abdullah bin Umar (ra) narrated that the Prophet (saw) said "A person dies and he did not give Bayyah, he dies the death of Jahiliyya".

We need to have khilafat, Saudi Arabia is not khilafat, therefore Saudi Arabia is a country amongst those of the jahilya, with monarchy.
Isn't it true then, that Saudi Arabia is a non-muslim country?

[www.forumsovetov.ru]

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته

Saudi Arabia is a Muslim country, just how Pakistan is a Muslim country, just how Indonesia is a Muslim country. Those who doubt this are the mubtadi' and the mushrikeen. It may not be a khilafah and thus its government is un-Islamic, but for Saudi Arabia to be considered a "non-Muslim" country, you'd have to show that either the majority of its inhabitants or rulers are non-Muslim or that it actively promotes ideologies that oppress Muslims living within its boundaries. Saudi Arabia has an un-Islamic government, just how Pakistan has an un-Islamic government, just how Indonesia has an un-Islamic government. There's a big difference between un-Islamic and non-Muslim.

[PekHyvac]

I've never heard someone say "If your not a Khaalifah you're automatically a kaafir country"

Please provide proof of this from the statements and understanding of the scholars.

No doubt Saudi Arabia makes mistakes, however the law in general is built upon the principles of Shari'ah. So do their mistakes equal to being kufr of all those in charge?

[CindyLavender]

Saudi Arabia is a Muslim country. No doubt about that.

[PekHyvac]

It was narrated by Ahmed in his Musnad, from Al-Nu’man b. Bashir, who said:

“We were sitting in the mosque of the Messenger of Allah (saw), and Bashir was a man who did not speak much, so Abu Tha’labah Al-Khashnee came and said: ‘Oh, Bashir bin Sa’ad, have you memorised the words of the Messenger of Allah (saw) regarding the rulers?’ Huthayfah replied, ‘I have memorised his words’. So Abu Tha’labah sat down and Huthayfah said, ‘The Messenger of Allah (saw) said ‘Prophethood will be amongst you whatever Allah wishes it to be, then He will lift it up if He wished to lift it up. Then there will be a Khilafah on the way of the Prophet, and it will be whatever Allah wishes it to be, then He will lift it up if Allah wished to lift it up. Then there will be an inheritance rule, and it will be whatever Allah wishes it to be, then He will lift it up if He wished to lift it up. Then there will be a coercive rule, and it will be whatever Allah wishes it to be, then He will lift it up if He wished to lift it up. Then there will be a Khilafah on the way of Prophethood.’ Then he was silent.”

[Abebpabeniemo]

It was narrated by Ahmed in his Musnad, from Al-Nu’man b. Bashir, who said:

“We were sitting in the mosque of the Messenger of Allah (saw), and Bashir was a man who did not speak much, so Abu Tha’labah Al-Khashnee came and said: ‘Oh, Bashir bin Sa’ad, have you memorised the words of the Messenger of Allah (saw) regarding the rulers?’ Huthayfah replied, ‘I have memorised his words’. So Abu Tha’labah sat down and Huthayfah said, ‘The Messenger of Allah (saw) said ‘Prophethood will be amongst you whatever Allah wishes it to be, then He will lift it up if He wished to lift it up. Then there will be a Khilafah on the way of the Prophet, and it will be whatever Allah wishes it to be, then He will lift it up if Allah wished to lift it up. Then there will be an inheritance rule, and it will be whatever Allah wishes it to be, then He will lift it up if He wished to lift it up. Then there will be a coercive rule, and it will be whatever Allah wishes it to be, then He will lift it up if He wished to lift it up. Then there will be a Khilafah on the way of Prophethood.’ Then he was silent.”

This hadith also curses monarchy in another version. We have to make khilafat.

[wmirkru]

This hadith also curses monarchy in another version. We have to make khilafat.

But answer the question, how is Saudi a "Non Muslim" Country?

[PekHyvac]

This hadith also curses monarchy in another version. We have to make khilafat.

No doubt we have to make Khilafah, but I want to know which scholars said if you don't call yourself Khilafah, and generally run by shariah you are still considered a Kaafir country,If that is a means of kufr show us which scholar said so.. If not, which mistakes did Saudi Arabia make in ruling that are kufr?

[largonioulurI]

Asalamu Alaykum Wr. Wb.

Is it true that Saudi Arabia is a kafir nation?

Recently I got to know that countries like Iran, Libya, Jordan, Pakistan, claims to follow the shariah, but honestly speaking this can not be true.

If you follow the shariah you can't just follow 90% of it, or 50% of it, you have to follow shariah 100%, and shariah implies that there is Khilafat.
This means that Saudi Arabia does not follow the sharia and is a non-muslim country.

The Prophet (saw) said: "When the oath of allegiance has been taken for two Khalifs, kill the latter of them". Sahih Muslim

"And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided." (Ahle Imran: 103)

Imam Ahmad narrated in al-Musnad, from Abdullah bin Amr, Prophet (SAW) said: "It is not halal for three people to be in the desert wilderness, unless they appoint one of them as the amir (leader) for themselves."

"That the sultan (leader) is the shade of Allah on Earth." And it was said: "Sixty years of an unjust imam (ruler) are better than one night without a leader." (The words of Ibnu Taimiyah in al-Siyasah al-Syar'iyyah)

Abdullah bin Umar (ra) narrated that the Prophet (saw) said "A person dies and he did not give Bayyah, he dies the death of Jahiliyya".

We need to have khilafat, Saudi Arabia is not khilafat, therefore Saudi Arabia is a country amongst those of the jahilya, with monarchy.
Isn't it true then, that Saudi Arabia is a non-muslim country?

Saudi Arabia is the most Muslim country in the world. However, like others, it may have un-Islamic practices engrained into its system of governance due to the monarchic rule of the Saudi's. They may have also made some terribly poor decisions in relation to certain areas of their general decision and policy making. But they will have to answer for this, not you (so need to worry).

Allahu A'lam

[nerrttrw]

It is a country full of muslims so how can it not be muslim?

Look into history, the caliphate was less united than people make out from the very beginning. evidence: the shia

2nd khalifa Umar(ra) was killed by a "muslim", uthman (RA) the 3rd khalifa was also killed by a "muslim", and by the time of the fourth caliph Ali(RA) the caliphate was virtually split into the commands of Ali(RA), Muawiya and Amr ibn el Aas. and guess who the fourth khalifa(RA) was killed by, yes you got it, by a "muslim".

The leaders however of the KSA, subhanallah, can never reach the lowest level which is with the kharijies. Their "reward" is with Allah and so is the "reward" of the progeny of al-saud.

Salam

[huedaanydrax]

It is a country full of muslims so how can it not be muslim?

Look into history, the caliphate was less united than people make out from the very beginning. evidence: the shia

2nd khalifa Umar(ra) was killed by a "muslim", uthman (RA) the 3rd khalifa was also killed by a "muslim", and by the time of the fourth caliph Ali(RA) the caliphate was virtually split into the commands of Ali(RA), Muawiya and Amr ibn el Aas. and guess who the fourth khalifa(RA) was killed by, yes you got it, by a "muslim".

The leaders however of the KSA, subhanallah, can never reach the lowest level which is with the kharijies. Their "reward" is with Allah and so is the "reward" of the progeny of al-saud.

Salam

khalifah umar (ra) was killed by a majoosi.

[Abebpabeniemo]

Saudi arabia is a muslim country just as Pakistan is a muslim country!! It may not be islamic!

If you think Pakistan is a muslim country, you obviously ain't that smart. Sorry to say akhi, but Pakistan can't be an islamic state.

Guys, what is a muslim country?
A country where the ruling is islamic (Caliphate) and the law is sharia (quran and sunnah)

You cant have sharia without having Caliphate, because Sharia implies Caliphate.

Saudi arabia dosnt have sharia nor Caliphate (they only follow sharia a little bit, like 80%) that means Saudi Arabia is a non-islamic country where people are muslims, but their country is not. That's the same reason why I dislike Palestine and other arab countries, it simply isnt islamic.

[surefireinvest]

If you think Pakistan is a muslim country, you obviously ain't that smart. Sorry to say akhi, but Pakistan can't be an islamic state.

Guys, what is a muslim country?
A country where the ruling is islamic (Caliphate) and the law is sharia (quran and sunnah)

You cant have sharia without having Caliphate, because Sharia implies Caliphate.

Saudi arabia dosnt have sharia nor Caliphate (they only follow sharia a little bit, like 80%) that means Saudi Arabia is a non-islamic country where people are muslims, but their country is not. That's the same reason why I dislike Palestine and other arab countries, it simply isnt islamic.

What is your point, hadrat?

[GitaraMoya]

the would-be bomber had been recruited by Saudi Arabia's intelligence agency and sent to Yemen where he infiltrated the militants' cell.

The undercover agent was reportedly given an ambitious task by Saudi intelligence - to convince AQAP that he wanted to blow up himself and a US-bound aircraft.

The agent was given the device which he then delivered to the CIA and Saudi officials.

The New York Times reports that the agent is now safe in Saudi Arabia.
...
The agent also provided intelligence that led the CIA to conduct a drone strike in Yemen on Sunday that killed AQAP leader Fahd al-Quso, the New York Times reported. How is this cooperation with kuffar to kill muslims called ?

[Gypejeva]

Asalamu Alaykum Wr. Wb.

Is it true that Saudi Arabia is a kafir nation?

Recently I got to know that countries like Iran, Libya, Jordan, Pakistan, claims to follow the shariah, but honestly speaking this can not be true.

If you follow the shariah you can't just follow 90% of it, or 50% of it, you have to follow shariah 100%, and shariah implies that there is Khilafat.
This means that Saudi Arabia does not follow the sharia and is a non-muslim country.

The Prophet (saw) said: "When the oath of allegiance has been taken for two Khalifs, kill the latter of them". Sahih Muslim

"And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided." (Ahle Imran: 103)

Imam Ahmad narrated in al-Musnad, from Abdullah bin Amr, Prophet (SAW) said: "It is not halal for three people to be in the desert wilderness, unless they appoint one of them as the amir (leader) for themselves."

"That the sultan (leader) is the shade of Allah on Earth." And it was said: "Sixty years of an unjust imam (ruler) are better than one night without a leader." (The words of Ibnu Taimiyah in al-Siyasah al-Syar'iyyah)

Abdullah bin Umar (ra) narrated that the Prophet (saw) said "A person dies and he did not give Bayyah, he dies the death of Jahiliyya".

We need to have khilafat, Saudi Arabia is not khilafat, therefore Saudi Arabia is a country amongst those of the jahilya, with monarchy.
Isn't it true then, that Saudi Arabia is a non-muslim country?

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...Apostate/page4

excellent thread, i think it should be revived.

"The verses in question are from the words of the Exalted, “If any do fail to judge by what Allah hath revealed, they are Unbelievers,” and in another verse, “They are wrong-doers,” and in a third verse, “They are those who rebel.”

The jurisprudents and exegetes of Ahl al-Sunna have explained that these verses, especially the first one, apply to Muslims and are not to be taken at face value. Rather, they are interpreted [beyond the apparent meaning]. To sum up [the interpretation]: If someone abandons ruling by what Allah has revealed because he believes that these verses are not valid and legitimate enough to be applied, then he is, by consensus, an unbeliever and an apostate, and these verses were meant for him. However, if he believes in the legitimacy and validity of these verses but does not apply them out of negligence, then he is still a Muslim, but he is corrupt and has wronged his soul by leaving Allah’s command."

[justashonglefan]

What is your point, hadrat?

Not on the basis of his overall point but based on the style of his writing, the way he opened up the thread, the tone with which he discusses/debates, and other hints, he is probably a member of Hizbut Tahrir or an admirer of them.

Based on that, I think that what his point probably is should be clear.

[elektikakass]

Sunni Student,

It doesn't matter about Hizb Tahrir or not. What matters is communicating and understanding a fellow Muslim brother.
It is outright hizbiya- haram sectarianism, partisanship- to simply dismiss someone or render him a pariah because you think he is from a certain group. And last I heard, HT are Muslim brothers, period. So what is this about if Caliph likes HT, or listens to them, etc.?


Subhanna Allah. Kufar and munafiqn are often treated better than our own brothers.



Brother Caliph,

You have confused some aspects of Shariah and in terms of addressing the state of affairs in Muslim countries.
There are different levels of recognizing lands. The original rule is Darul Islam (muhajroon according to the famous hadith) or darul harb.
Overtime, as the Islamic state failed to sustain or continue to advance jihad on harbi lands in particular, ulama began seeking exceptions by which to address various lands wherein there were never Muslims, who ruled by kufr, but were NOT at war. Hence, Darul kufr.

Today, as the Islamic state has been extinguished from this world, we are living in a era wherein 'exceptions' and mitigating circumstances have become the norm- the exception has become the rule. However, we still need to identify various lands.

Hukm Sharii recognizes that any land wherein the kharaji was paid belongs to the Muslim Ummah. This would mean Spain and its colonies in Africa, Gibraltar, all of north Africa and most of West Africa and East Africa, a majority of India, etc. would all belong to Muslims regardless of its current inhabitants. But we ahve have to back away from this in order to 'go along to get along' with the kufar global order.

Thus, we see countries wherein the majority of people are Muslim, wherein Islam has some history, is a Muslim country. In that sense, Saudi Arabia IS a Muslim country.

However, Saudi Arabia fails to meet the minimal Shariah requirements of being representative of Islam. It has connivingly buried its kufr laws within its "adminstrative decrees", such as embracing nationalism, restricting Muslim naturalization, implementing riba, etc. Thus, Saudi monarchy is a Muslim country, but is NOT an authentic Islamic state, authentic Islam meaning it represents the minimal Shariah standards.

As for a government being kufr, there CAN be a distinction between the ruler, and the system which he rules by. A ruler can claim to be and in all outward and personal sense, be a Muslim, but system which he has sworn to uphold, a system with a constitution and standard, is openly kufr. Secularism which rejects the Hudud, which rejects the Shariah as it applies in all aspects of life, IS kufr. Yes, it is possible to distinguish between a Muslim ruler an his kufr system.

It is largely a failure of scholarship- not an acceptance- that ulama have not been able to confront this disparity between a ruler and the governing system.


And Allah knows best.

[Heacechig]

Though of course I can't find it right now, I remember reading a fatwa on Islamweb.net a while ago where someone had asked a similar question. Their reply (fatwa) said that these nations are still considered Muslim nations, they are however misguided and not completely (or at all) following the commands of Allah , but they made it clear that does not constitute them as "non-muslim" nations, rather it puts them under the umbrella of "misguided Muslim nations".

I tried searching for it right now but couldn't find it, Insha'Allah someone else can locate the same or a similar fatwa and post it.

Allah knows best.

[SDorothy28]

This hadith also curses monarchy in another version. We have to make khilafat.

Salam `Aleykum,

No it does not "curse monarchy", kingdom is a natural political evolution in the Islamic world, eventually leading up to Khilafah again.

It was reported that when Mu`awiyah (raa) became the ruler he stood up and said: "Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar! I am the first of kings."

And in the SAHIH Hadith:

One day The Prophet (SAWS) went to Um Haram's house and she offered him a meal, and after that he slept, and then woke up smiling. She (Um Haram) said, "I asked him, 'What makes you laugh, O Allah's Apostle?' He said, 'Some people of my followers were displayed before me as warriors fighting for Allah's Cause and sailing over this sea, kings on thrones,' or said, 'like kings on thrones.' (The narrator, Ishaq is in doubt about it.) I (Um Haram) said, 'O Allah's Apostle! Invoke Allah that He may make me one of them.' He invoked (Allah) for her and then lay his head and slept again...

So this was considered a good thing, not a bad thing, it is natural, but titles such as Shah'n'Shah or "King of kings" these are un-Islamic.

wal-Salamu `Aleykum.

[nushentelve]

Brother Calip what are you doing in Denmark, according to this approach which you are representing, any buddy who lives in, or supports, or pay taxes to, true darul Harb is also a Kafir

So stay away from these thoughts, learn islam from Scholars, learn the kharijites, never consider yourself an Alim without getting rigorous scholarly training from scholars, never dictate the scholars on the basis of your own cognition of QURAN WA HADITH.

Saudi Arabia is most Islamic state in the world, and CURRENTLY most beneficial to Islam in compassion to others. Pakistan is also an Islamic state b/c it has Islamic constitution.

100% is kharijites concept, Muslim can be Wali, or can be ordinary Muslim or can be Faajir or can be Faasiq, even being a Muslim he can commit all possible sins, except kufur.

And as long as the State has Islamic constitution, it will be considered an Islamic State.