[Honealals]

Regardless of whether men are obsessed with women or not what statistical evidence can you provide from research conducted in sociology, economics, etc that the majority of problems of the ummah are due to MEN because we are the one's running the society..working...administrating..ruling, etc?
You may have missed the part (in recent economic and social timess) whereby gender-equal societies are failing.

What? Are you for real? You need stats? In Muslim societies all across the globe..overwhelmingly...Men are administrators , Men are rulers , Men are traders , Men are scholars , Men are constructors , Men are ministers , Men are EVERYTHING! So when Muslim societies aren't doing good enough...you'll blame women ? No societies are "falling" apart as much as Muslim societies are..so your point? Pakistan was once a good country..but now...retarded Islamic extremism has made that country a JOKE of the world.."Muslims" don't care that their daughters are given polluted milk , which has SERIOUS biological consequences specially for girls undergoing puberty...but Muslim care if their girls wear a "burka" or not! What backward , illiterate , stinky ,and retarded approach is that? I NEVER saw scholars working aggressively against people who pollute milk , make fake medicines , play with HEALTH CARE of Islamic societies..All Scholars care is "Oh damn! that women's dress is inappropriate"! How sad and hopeless. Health Care is a CIVILIZATIONAL ISSUE..ever wondered why the West spend SO MUCH on health care?


Again what is you statistical evidence for the above. After World War II Great Britain was in ruins and although the work force was women it was the foreign employees that came to the country (men) that assisted in the rebuild of the country.
Sorry but such shallow examples are of no use. British got marshall plan and British's women do work! Even in Japan , women DO work! They work without any societal pressures..no one tells them "You work , hence you will be burned alive again and again" ...

You assume a lot with the cloaking of factual truths which are not there. You have failed to bring into the equation economic debt and how that cripples a society.

What does it has to do with Women's liberties?

You think Pakistan can complete on a global scale if the workforce is increased with women? I think you need to get a better insight in to global economy in the 21st before putting forward hypothesis that have no backing. For an economy to compete on global level , there are MANY factors to be taken care of. But Women's empowerment is NOT just an economic issue. Women should be FREE , EMPOWERED , RESPECTED , and PROTECTED! I don't want men to exploit my sister...I don't want my sister to always live subservient to man...I want her to have AS MANY rights as men have..As many OPPORTUNITIES as men have...I don't know about what you think about your sister though...But I want RESPECT for my sister...not any sub-servient status..

This is not to say I am one for women not working, etc. Frankly as far as I am concerned each individuals situation is different and that of a community, society and a country. But to assume that in 2012 (this is not about 21st century but how economics works as the same principals from 1945. 1955, 1960, etc can not be applied due to the massive changes and shifts in how economics work today) that the solution lies in getting people to work more and work harder and work faster is what is needed for economic growth and stability in society would frankly be naive and a expression of lack of elementary economics Again economic growth is another topic. Women's education and empowerment is a HUGE part of that but there are other factors involved too. I won't discuss this part of your post.

Thanks.

[largonioulurI]

I also don't understand why the great Muslim scholars are SO obsessed with Muslim WOMEN. Women can't do this , no she can't do that. If women gets to drive , society will fall. Women voting? NO NO! Women working? Astagfurrullah etc etc ...Even though , the majority of problems of the ummah are due to MEN because we are the one's running the society..working...administrating..ruling etc etc etc ...right?

Secondly , its about productivity law. Study economics brother. When you have "50%" of your assumed labor pool (women) sitting in home or not getting equal opportunity in the economic flow ....such society can NEVER..and I mean N E V E R ...compete with other top economies of the world. Women's role is critical. Women should study WITH males so that they can get the CONFIDENCE to deal with us creatures..then..when in the workfield....women will not be able to get 'subdued' by males or get harrassed. Working with men , studying etc etc is NO wrong. Proper laws should be implemented that will stop men from harrassing our girls. Do you REALLY think that all of a sudden..Muslim girls will start having sex with men because now they work under same roof? NO! Yes , bad people are everywhere and even girls studying in "women college" get in affairs (actually , MOSTLY the girls that go to women colleges start affairs....Look around you in Pakistan) ... Economic progress is critical for Islamic civilization...right? So lets work towards it..It is good for Islam too. We have to take Islam in 21st century and bring back our past prosperity,Inshallah!

Undoubtedly, men are part of the problem, but that is a very simplistic approach to looking at things. If woman ruled - it would be better ? We've had Muslim woman leaders in Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia - does not make a difference - they were apparently 'educated women'.

There is an even bigger, 'core structural' issue which will ensure that Muslims have to climb a mountain before they make any progress - regardless of education, modern development, womens empowerment and any other 'ism' or 'scism'. Their economies are either heavily linked-to OR based on usurious practices - a system that came into full swing in the last hundred years - embedded into the world economic system upon the end of world war two. Its such a vast topic, cannot do justice to it here.

Basically, get all the men, women, children together, let them do all they want - implement anything they want.... until this core systemic issue is not resolved - Muslims and (the rest of the world population) will be in constant strife and slavery - directly affected or suffering from the fallout and backlash.

As I said, cannot do it justice here and this is not the relevant thread aswell - but here is a very good article that gives a good overview of the failure of this system in a limited context. I rarely have a good thing to say about the UK media - but this article from Johann Harri is a gem :

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http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...l-2292270.html

"To understand this story, you have to reel back to the birth of the IMF. In 1944, the countries that were poised to win the Second World War gathered in a hotel in rural New Hampshire to divvy up the spoils. With a few honourable exceptions, like the great British economist John Maynard Keynes, the negotiators were determined to do one thing. They wanted to build a global financial system that ensured they received the lion's share of the planet's money and resources. They set up a series of institutions designed for that purpose – and so the IMF was delivered into the world.


The IMF’s official job sounds simple and attractive. It is supposedly there to ensure poor countries don’t fall into debt, and if they do, to lift them out with loans and economic expertise. It is presented as the poor world’s best friend and guardian. But beyond the rhetoric, the IMF was designed to be dominated by a handful of rich countries – and, more specifically, by their bankers and financial speculators. The IMF works in their interests, every step of the way.


Let’s look at how this plays out on the ground. In the 1990s, the small country of Malawi in south-eastern Africa was facing severe economic problems after enduring one of the worst HIV-AIDS epidemics in the world and surviving a horrific dictatorship. They had to ask the IMF for help. If the IMF has acted in its official role, it would have given loans and guided the country to develop in the same way that Britain and the US and every other successful country had developed – by protecting its infant industries, subsidising its farmers, and investing in the education and health of its people.


That’s what an institution that was concerned with ordinary people – and accountable to them – would look like. But the IMF did something very different. They said they would only give assistance if Malawi agreed to the ‘structural adjustments’ the IMF demanded. They ordered Malawi to sell off almost everything the state owned to private companies and speculators, and to slash spending on the population. They demanded they stop subsidising fertilizer, even though it was the only thing that made it possible for farmers – most of the population – to grow anything in the country’s feeble and depleted soil. They told them to prioritise giving money to international bankers over giving money to the Malawian people.


So when in 2001 the IMF found out the Malawian government had built up large stockpiles of grain in case there was a crop failure, they ordered them to sell it off to private companies at once. They told Malawi to get their priorities straight by using the proceeds to pay off a loan from a large bank the IMF had told them to take out in the first place, at a 56 per cent annual rate of interest. The Malawian president protested and said this was dangerous. But he had little choice. The grain was sold. The banks were paid.


The next year, the crops failed. The Malawian government had almost nothing to hand out. The starving population was reduced to eating the bark off the trees, and any rats they could capture. The BBC described it as Malawi’s “worst ever famine.” There had been a much worse crop failure in 1991-2, but there was no famine because then the government had grain stocks to distribute. So at least a thousand innocent people starved to death.


At the height of the starvation, the IMF suspended $47m in aid, because the government had ‘slowed’ in implementing the marketeering ‘reforms’ that had led to the disaster. ActionAid, the leading provider of help on the ground, conducted an autopsy into the famine. They concluded that the IMF “bears responsibility for the disaster.”


Then, in the starved wreckage, Malawi did something poor countries are not supposed to do. They told the IMF to get out. Suddenly free to answer to their own people rather than foreign bankers, Malawi disregarded all the IMF’s ‘advice’, and brought back subsidies for the fertiliser, along with a range of other services to ordinary people. Within two years, the country was transformed from being a beggar to being so abundant they were supplying food aid to Uganda and Zimbabwe.


The Malawian famine should have been a distant warning cry for you and me. Subordinating the interests of ordinary people to bankers and speculators caused starvation there. Within a few years, it had crashed the global economy for us all.


In the history of the IMF, this story isn’t an exception: it is the rule. The organisation takes over poor countries, promising it has medicine that will cure them – and then pours poison down their throats. Whenever I travel across the poor parts of the world I see the scars from IMF ‘structural adjustments’ everywhere, from Peru to Ethiopia. Whole countries have collapsed after being IMF-ed up – most famously Argentina and Thailand in the 1990s.


Look at some of the organisation’s greatest hits. In Kenya, the IMF insisted the government introduce fees to see the doctor – so the number of women seeking help or advice on STDs fell by 65 per cent, in one of the countries worst affected by AIDS in the world.

In Ghana, the IMF insisted the government introduce fees for going to school – and the number of rural families who could afford to send their kids crashed by two-thirds. In Zambia, the IMF insisted they slash health spending – and the number of babies who died doubled. Amazingly enough, it turns out that shovelling your country’s money to foreign bankers, rather than your own people, isn’t a great development strategy.


The Nobel Prize winning economist Joseph Stiglitz worked closely with the IMF for over a decade, until he quit and became a whistle-blower. He told me a few years ago: “When the IMF arrives in a country, they are interested in only one thing. How do we make sure the banks and financial institutions are paid?... It is the IMF that keeps the [financial] speculators in business. They’re not interested in development, or what helps a country to get out of poverty.”


Some people call the IMF “inconsistent”, because the institution supports huge state-funded bank bailouts in the rich world, while demanding an end to almost all state funding in the poor world. But that’s only an inconsistency if you are thinking about the realm of intellectual ideas, rather than raw economic interests. In every situation, the IMF does what will get more money to bankers and speculators. If rich governments will hand banks money for nothing in “bailouts”, great. If poor countries can be forced to hand banks money in extortionate “repayments”, great. It’s absolutely consistent"

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Allahu A'lam

[nerrttrw]

Please take these old conspiracy theories out of here. U.S would NEVER want Saudi Arabia to get prosperous and free. They will always want Saudi Arabia to remain "conservative" unproductive society so the West can get free oil. What you propose is itself a conspiracy theory, this is laughable, you are a great comedian. well done!

[Honealals]

What you propose is itself a conspiracy theory, this is laughable, you are a great comedian. well done!

No. Its not a "conspiracy" theory. Its an OBVIOUS fact. If I am an Westerner , I would WANT Muslims to remained ultra-conservative dumbasses who keep following ritualistic part of their faith. People who depend on their "Allah" to make them win the wars and all that. Why would I , as a Westerner , want you to come out of delusions and start working towards health , education , science and technology , space exploration , military build-up , indigenous industrial build-up and so on and on? See now that you have realized how dumb ultra-conservative Muslims are , and how they are HELPING the West by remained isolated , backward and illiterate and in delusions , you are calling me a comedian and what not. If Islamic women gets empowered...it is GOOD for Islam and Muslim and Islamic civilization. Hope you'll get my point..

[BILBONDER]

No. Its not a "conspiracy" theory. Its an OBVIOUS fact. If I am an Westerner , I would WANT Muslims to remained ultra-conservative dumbasses who keep following ritualistic part of their faith. People who depend on their "Allah" to make them win the wars and all that. Why would I , as a Westerner , want you to come out of delusions and start working towards health , education , science and technology , space exploration , military build-up , indigenous industrial build-up and so on and on? See now that you have realized how dumb ultra-conservative Muslims are , and how they are HELPING the West by remained isolated , backward and illiterate and in delusions , you are calling me a comedian and what not. If Islamic women gets empowered...it is GOOD for Islam and Muslim and Islamic civilization. Hope you'll get my point..

What is 'Islam' to you?

[Honealals]

What is 'Islam' to you?

A religion that is suppose to make Muslims SUCCESSFUL in the world and hereafter. Islam is less "rituals" and more practical. Islam was a liberal progressive force BUT our "molvis" made it a conservative force. Now sadly Muslims don't even know their own history . . . . .

Muslims make Islam an "excuse" to their failures. Things like "This world is for Kaffir , Akhira is for us. So if we are failing here , no problem.It is how this is suppose to be" ... THIS just drives me nutts! Islam is not just covering your body and getting isolated. Islam is something refreshing. Something that will make you thrive in this world.

[BILBONDER]

A religion that is suppose to make Muslims SUCCESSFUL in the world and hereafter. Islam is less "rituals" and more practical. Islam was a liberal progressive force BUT our "molvis" made it a conservative force. Now sadly Muslims don't even know their own history . . . . .

Muslims make Islam an "excuse" to their failures. Things like "This world is for Kaffir , Akhira is for us. So if we are failing here , no problem.It is how this is suppose to be" ... THIS just drives me nutts! Islam is not just covering your body and getting isolated. Islam is something refreshing. Something that will make you thrive in this world.

No, Islam is submission to Allah. That includes all His laws and His rulings and His rituals, because He is Al-Hakim, and He is the Most Just in Judgment.

[Honealals]

No, Islam is submission to Allah. That includes all His laws and His rulings and His rituals, because He is Al-Hakim, and He is the Most Just in Judgment.

Well giving women freedom is also submission to Allah because Islam liberated women in the conservative society of Arabia. Getting good modern education is also submission to Allah because Allah tells us to seek knowledge. If a person memorize Qur'an in today's age , and the other person uses his intelligence to become a medical researcher and saves many life..Allah will definitely be more pleased with the guy who used his intelligence for the benefit of others. Today, we have computers that can hold Qur'an and what not! Submission to Islamic Law is one thing..Submission to 10th century scholar's interpretation is another thing.

[GogaMegaPiska]

May allah Give us rulers that care more about the aakhirah and less about the dunya.

ameen.

[Malinguenem]

Allahumma Ameen!

Both La-Madhabis with no aqal as usual.

what more can you expect from La-Madhabis.

[Honealals]

Both La-Madhabis with no aqal as usual.

what more can you expect from La-Madhabis.

Is this how Islam tell you to talk to others? Who disagree with your views?

[DP5Ups8o]

Has the king sacked that princess sitting in UK?

[rNr5Di3S]

Is this how Islam tell you to talk to others? Who disagree with your views?

interesting how you guys 'always' bring up manners when cornered. learn to talk about ulema with manners first.

[GitaraMoya]

Has the king sacked that princess sitting in UK?

Good point. But I believe it's the opposite ie she might get praise for her 'useful work'.

[SeLvesTr]

@Brother Auzer

I would like to ask a question:

How many Muslim countries in the world are ruled by 'molvis,' 'mullahs' etc...?

You might be surprised that the majority of the Muslim world is ruled by the same liberal minded approach that you so love. The same ones who love their women to appear in lewd clothes, attend mixed gatherings all in the name of equality!! And it shouldn't be surprise you that the Ummah is at the lowest in terms of spiritual and worldly strength.

Your viewpoint echoes the narrative of the Western world and their supposed idea of freedom. Remember Rasulullah said that the Dunya is the prison for the Mu'min and jannah for the Kaafir. Why did he say that??

You are so passionate about liberating women and cite the example of Islam liberating women from the Jahiliyyah period. Maybe you have not read the historical accounts and seen how alike the 'modern woman' is to her counterpart in the Jahiliyyah period. Maybe you choose to ignore the reports of the women of the Ansaar who ripped their cloaks and covered themselves completely in submission to Allah's commands. Maybe you choose to ignore that the blessed daughter of Rasulullah Faatimah said that the best thing for a woman is that no man sees her and that a woman does not see a man.

Understand it well that your avenue on liberating women will lead to the same anarchy that you see so prevalent in the Western world. You need to spend some time in any western countries social services apparatus and you will so openly the cancerous tumours caused by supposed liberation!

For once be proud of your Deen and not a grovelling apologist.

2:228...but men have a rank over them (women). And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

4:34 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard.....

4:65 But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.

2:120 Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.

4:115 And whoso opposeth the messenger after the guidance (of Allah) hath been manifested unto him, and followeth other than the believer's way, We appoint for him that unto which he himself hath turned, and expose him unto hell a hapless journey's end!

And peace will be for him who followeth right guidance (Quraan al Hakeem)

[Assunkkensatt]

Shortly the princess will be the minister of religious affairs.

Salaam Bro. This made me laugh out loud!! Let's pray to Allah that He guides our rulers to implement the shari'ah instead of obeying the whims of western "intellectual" thought.

[rNr5Di3S]

@Brother Auzer

I would like to ask a question:

How many Muslim countries in the world are ruled by 'molvis,' 'mullahs' etc...?

You might be surprised that the majority of the Muslim world is ruled by the same liberal minded approach that you so love. The same ones who love their women to appear in lewd clothes, attend mixed gatherings all in the name of equality!! And it shouldn't be surprise you that the Ummah is at the lowest in terms of spiritual and worldly strength.

Your viewpoint echoes the narrative of the Western world and their supposed idea of freedom. Remember Rasulullah said that the Dunya is the prison for the Mu'min and jannah for the Kaafir. Why did he say that??

You are so passionate about liberating women and cite the example of Islam liberating women from the Jahiliyyah period. Maybe you have not read the historical accounts and seen how alike the 'modern woman' is to her counterpart in the Jahiliyyah period. Maybe you choose to ignore the reports of the women of the Ansaar who ripped their cloaks and covered themselves completely in submission to Allah's commands. Maybe you choose to ignore that the blessed daughter of Rasulullah Faatimah said that the best thing for a woman is that no man sees her and that a woman does not see a man.

Understand it well that your avenue on liberating women will lead to the same anarchy that you see so prevalent in the Western world. You need to spend some time in any western countries social services apparatus and you will so openly the cancerous tumours caused by supposed liberation!

For once be proud of your Deen and not a grovelling apologist.

2:228...but men have a rank over them (women). And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

4:34 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard.....

4:65 But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.

2:120 Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.

4:115 And whoso opposeth the messenger after the guidance (of Allah) hath been manifested unto him, and followeth other than the believer's way, We appoint for him that unto which he himself hath turned, and expose him unto hell a hapless journey's end!

And peace will be for him who followeth right guidance (Quraan al Hakeem)

aoa,
superb post akhi.

[rNr5Di3S]

to Auzer (and rest of modernists living in west):
"This is a true story of a Niqabi sister in France After picking groceries in the supermarket, the Niqabi sister stood in the line to pay. After few minutes, her turn came up at the checkout counter. The checkout girl who was non Hijabi Arab Muslim girl started to scan the items of the Niqabi sister one buy one and then she looked at her with arrogance and said :”we have in France many problems, your Niqab is one of them!! We, immigrants, are here for trade and not to show our Deen or history! If you want to practice your Deen and wear Niqab then go back to your Arab country and do whatever you want!!” The Niqabi sister stopped putting her grocery in the bag and took off her Niqab… The checkout girl was in total shock! The Niqabi girl who was blond with blue eyes told her:”I am a French girl, not an Arab immigrant! This is my country and THIS IS MY ISLAM!! You born Muslims sold your Deen and we bought it from you And Allaah says: "If you turn away, Allaah will replace you by another people, and they will not be like you." (47:38)"

you are the sales girl in the story. May Allah give us all hidayat.

[viagracheapest]

I thought that Mr. Auzer was an useless guy on this forum. But he has become the cause of two marvelous posts^. Subhaanallaah!

[allachakb]

We introduce to you "modern islam" or should i say "american islam"! Brother these bunch of sunniforumers are "extremists" and "fundamentalists" and with outdated ideas. Why waste ur time here. Invest it somewhere else that might be better. U can certainly become a journalist, media would surely welcome u with open arms.
Try ur luck!
Its a sincere advice!